X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Nigel Baker" Received: from mail-pf0-f178.google.com ([209.85.192.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9403962 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 07:12:14 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.178; envelope-from=nigel@limbachaustralia.com Received: by mail-pf0-f178.google.com with SMTP id f144so65341869pfa.2 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 04:12:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=limbachaustralia-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=qLb7z4OSIaFrTN9+bsOAGbgES3i7PZ4ueYjCGS+u/jw=; b=l4/LY+HVSTYcB807f6onWek9I8mh2QkSjRxfK2bVExPlhKOI49kB5ed71NZpZMMiX0 PZPcCRENL9glKVAuE+EB2BQORW6ef9wto0ayUBiQUCS4r52Yt0A5Z/zB2aRPM5OQnKZ6 JqwBf57EnWw9Dxpy5UDA1DLKa610l6Jfw5aF/W86zzvITodp9FRIFXSTTsFeHLdsKs0R 1tnTFy+1qhJt84zWJxkNe1SApZo+aVdAXCgAlAwQ3vro2BiULHKe8YmxDqfiur5XSEFF d+mevCMVae5eYPhKVNdjLipR9XCXe41JHJRWhcqUqMRYg/OL+sIQ0JhnOViunI84VNXo 1k0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=qLb7z4OSIaFrTN9+bsOAGbgES3i7PZ4ueYjCGS+u/jw=; b=DH7/1OcS5/F853GTZdIVtBKwQYohkKqX2CuIpFAz8sYMJG/1NEm/pTezPQyKTx6PVs uBF3Xlgfi4gFYa4m6n4cRZMKjAtwwYC5253Ud7wzACEKoZEjxPrrCMrfZ96vV6rGlUgu BzOr8GhgheDLSM4OX0T9ksuz+yRZbTq2d4vzQzi+jQ3o8Zke4nEpspOXvpzg8AwEgAAW 2q3fvpPgPp9sSmKRCVXijkB/s2teoIsTvr0SNuSwakOO2asquS6+B7kwJm9Uk/NR+AnT ZRYlYzqOYpT08mqmffo5CGPyVQw8cm+4l0qIQe2CDcJ/8jSNE89js0wXF4BMDdai4sUY +C8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLqHeILy3zFVYSkofEUsFpaywlw288WKKFqnfFhWxC/ASPZmppNC2FikdNEKweCaA== X-Received: by 10.99.131.65 with SMTP id h62mr2731615pge.41.1485432715169; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 04:11:55 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from HeatherAndNigel (bakerh5.lnk.telstra.net. [110.142.123.166]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j185sm3228830pgd.35.2017.01.26.04.11.52 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jan 2017 04:11:54 -0800 (PST) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 22:41:49 +1030 Message-ID: <000001d277cd$617f0100$247d0300$@limbachaustralia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01D27825.6411FFF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQJzAigy8wDraBCNIdziAgPNWykikaAJlK2Q Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D27825.6411FFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactly. Getting heat away on the outside is the idea. The CBC2 is used in the combustion chamber as a thermal barrier coating = to reduce heat going into the heads. The TLTD is used on the fins/outside of the heads as a thermal = dispersant. I don=E2=80=99t know how it works but it does. It improves = the transition of the heat in the heads to the cooling air. It must = improve heat conductivity. There is descriptions of the application of both products on the = website. Cheers. Nige. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 1:34 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets =20 Hi Nigel, Just curious. What was the idea in coating the outside of the = heads? The coatings are typically to block heat flow and I=E2=80=99d = think we=E2=80=99d like the heat to flow out of the heads on an AeroVee. =20 Tracy=20 =20 Sent from Mail for = Windows 10 =20 From: Nigel Baker =20 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets =20 Yep. I recently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion = chambes and outside of the heads. I used CBC2 and TLTD from = http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/shop-only.html\ = =20 I am in OZ but fortunately it was available locally. The process was straight forward and I did the curing in the BBQ oven = outside. I also went ouch when I got a quote to have it done and it was far = cheaper to by the stuff and do it myself ( I have a small grit blaster = so did that myself as well but that was included in the quote). I have = enough of the stuff left over to do about another 10 sets of heads. Cheers. Nige. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets =20 Ouch. Anyone have any experience with any of the DIY coatings? For that = money, you consider building your own curing oven.... Charlie On 1/23/2017 3:01 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: Got a quote from Jet-Hot. A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for = Corvair would be around $300. =20 On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN = = wrote: =20 I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas = of slip joints or ball joints. =20 Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter = exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a = cooler blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being = cooled by moving air leaving the cowling? Rich =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes: Lynn, Et All,=20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I = have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early = Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to = rotary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for = some time now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to = turbo header temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the = inside and outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect = that even help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most = heat wraps, and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on = racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 = difference inside my fairing with no other changes using color change = tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated = heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the = headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and = survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work = for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend = them. Bill Jepson=20 =20 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover > wrote: The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps = around the engine. =20 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust = in one racing season. Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside = radius of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orange = header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped = header looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? = Steel under stress fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist = and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and = only thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the = exiting exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Will = your car muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off = along those pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important? = =20 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same = length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector = attaches with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a = spring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in = case the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know = and a piece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the = least helpful. The collector is supported loosely by a bracket that = moves with the engine.=20 =20 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine = moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and = so-on may be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =20 The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding = spaced one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the = shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing = temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating = higher temps.=20 =20 Been there. Done that. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes: My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between = difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 = stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting = airflow through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy, = but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material = for more heat isolation. =20 =20 =20 On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim = > = wrote: =20 So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that = some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures = don't like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of = radiant heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just = want to try to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know = ceramic coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once = a pipe is no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for = it to stay. On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated = as that was supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little = detonation incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic = had come off due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel = that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping = them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate = out. But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's = done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone = again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my = exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change = again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX = wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of = hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended = that the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" = downstream from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" = downstream. So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to = cut it off along with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and = weld a patch over it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty = simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. =20 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place = but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust = manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but = I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for = the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is = directly below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat = transfer. I made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket = sewed together like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I = decided to also cover with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, = so I made it into a sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get = down to the muffler which is located inside a housing (more on that in a = another post), due to it's location inside a housing I decided to put a = quilted blanket sleeve over that one too. =20 Pics of all this and more at this link. =20 https://goo.gl/photos/ NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 = =20 Todd Bartrim =20 C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D27825.6411FFF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Exactly. Getting heat = away on the outside is the idea.

The CBC2 is used in = the combustion chamber as a thermal barrier coating to reduce heat going = into the heads.

The TLTD is used on = the fins/outside of the heads as a thermal dispersant. I don=E2=80=99t = know how it works but it does. It improves the transition of the heat in = the heads to the cooling air. It must improve heat = conductivity.

There is descriptions = of the application of both products on the = website.

Cheers.

Nige.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: = Wednesday, January 25, 2017 1:34 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and = blankets

 

Hi Nigel,

    Just curious.  What was the idea in = coating the outside of the heads?  The coatings are typically to = block heat flow and I=E2=80=99d think we=E2=80=99d like the heat to flow = out of the heads on an AeroVee.

 

Tracy

 

Sent from Mail for = Windows 10

 

From: = Nigel Baker
Sent: = Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and = blankets

 

Yep. I = recently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion chambes = and outside of the heads.

I used CBC2 = and TLTD from h= ttp://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/shop-only.html\

I am in OZ but fortunately it was = available locally.

The process was = straight forward and I did the curing in the BBQ oven = outside.

I also went ouch when I got = a quote to have it done and it was far cheaper to by the stuff and do it = myself ( I have a small grit blaster so did that myself as well but that = was included in the quote). I have enough of the stuff left over to do = about another 10 sets of heads.

Cheers.

Nige.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:56 = AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and = blankets

 

 

I = am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas = of slip joints or ball joints.

&nb= sp;

Als= o with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter = exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a = cooler blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being = cooled by moving air leaving the = cowling?

Ric= h

&nb= sp;

In = a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Lyn= n, Et All,

I = want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have = used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot = didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary = exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some = time now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo = header temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside = and outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that = even help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat = wraps, and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on = racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 = difference inside my fairing with no other changes using color change = tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated = heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the = headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and = survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work = for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend = them.

 

On = Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:

 

So I'm = interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that some = people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don't = like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant = heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to = try to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic = coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe = is no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to = stay. On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as = that was supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little = detonation incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic = had come off due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel = that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping = them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate = out.

  =  But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's = done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone = again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my = exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change = again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX = wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of = hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended = that the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" = downstream from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only = 14" downstream. So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I = decided to cut it off along with another (long ago) incorrectly placed = EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new O2 bung = downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and = re-wrap.

 Next is = blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place but then = I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust manifold = that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I made = one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the = largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly = below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I = made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed = together like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to = also cover with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made = it into a sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the = muffler which is located inside a housing (more on that in a another = post), due to it's location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted = blanket sleeve over that one too.


Todd = Bartrim

 

C-FSTB

RV9 = 13Bturbo

 

 

 

 

 

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