X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from mail-it0-f49.google.com ([209.85.214.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9398082 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 24 Jan 2017 10:04:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.49; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-it0-f49.google.com with SMTP id c7so87278667itd.1 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2017 07:04:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date:importance:in-reply-to :references; bh=NcOI/RED2F4CVbKpRxFS1QA+O/jw6zAqVIwCPELs+0M=; b=k1Ao37vdC6zUQ9C1NTyhgc+V+MxAGP6Jvgie/wiuSO5/KuyvJGRr31/u+nIrCgyDNq DFnhawdFkCVYtnlJm6QTr9JqHxuFTmISgJ0k/U0eqZ+RCGe9kfYVQIzehtlsFmI/GsA6 Ij/bWE07YycM7ErF2WnPTEGUwAM0nH/0kmg60n/BWadUYeNLXbA6yhTVTXLRua0Uyl1i jZ3xOHF6bQt5rnx7S7VY6GKh9QpCq5JdTzfNIdvaILlYE9G1X8enjG0E4DYHUPkSY0O7 T3D3UaJew9E2a6ft2V80A/CDTUVW+sCWc3fHqW4MTizYZO/F+qY98LSBN99SW+v7PuX2 CO2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=NcOI/RED2F4CVbKpRxFS1QA+O/jw6zAqVIwCPELs+0M=; b=uoBQw67EY60bDMDEqmm95i/7atrZg6kREepmCMToZLmLyVpU6Z9oiDksA3Nd0xqqsV 2lmkHk13tB8TdFaa0eWJhdI1iBl+Jg3yXOiqiKMflu62DD6s+yz3l2kwhbIBBf1PZcMx 7QwHikIBIM1ErtI9NIWpHeZXTVD68thWnKXXayGLcuWEnY17jQ7nqjqL2Lh2O1LUcU50 S/YteQ3inlblO0eYfX27O/11OYjbYDUfzd2Ht1qFI4/k5acW1H5jiUjuoHab6ESw/oof JEduygv+mSYQ51ZmTYdJuTP1E7R8q0rjKcekHlwwn9l6UuKuu/VCgCXnWCv0b2edM1cH qkiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJqUc8J4I53l5a1MxGNFhwIkxduvFX+uuwJSPxJrmhfnBBsFo+8ukOEznLNmpr7Uw== X-Received: by 10.36.26.79 with SMTP id 76mr19464883iti.67.1485270247352; Tue, 24 Jan 2017 07:04:07 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:::ffff:192.168.0.219? (adsl-98-70-189-130.gnv.bellsouth.net. [98.70.189.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e9sm6022660ioe.33.2017.01.24.07.04.03 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Jan 2017 07:04:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <58876ce5.091e6b0a.2a01c.b749@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nigel Baker Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 10:04:02 -0500 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_638C4E75-D6BF-4972-B7F9-E23674D3443E_" --_638C4E75-D6BF-4972-B7F9-E23674D3443E_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Nigel, Just curious. What was the idea in coating the outside of the heads? = The coatings are typically to block heat flow and I=E2=80=99d think we=E2= =80=99d like the heat to flow out of the heads on an AeroVee. Tracy=20 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Nigel Baker Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Yep. I recently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion cha= mbes and outside of the heads. I used CBC2 and TLTD from http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/sh= op-only.html\ I am in OZ but fortunately it was available locally. The process was straight forward and I did the curing in the BBQ oven outsi= de. I also went ouch when I got a quote to have it done and it was far cheaper = to by the stuff and do it myself ( I have a small grit blaster so did that = myself as well but that was included in the quote). I have enough of the st= uff left over to do about another 10 sets of heads. Cheers. Nige. From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets Ouch. Anyone have any experience with any of the DIY coatings? For that mon= ey, you consider building your own curing oven.... Charlie On 1/23/2017 3:01 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: Got a quote from Jet-Hot. =C2=A0A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for= Corvair would be around $300. On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN wrote: I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas of= slip joints or ball joints. =C2=A0 Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter exh= aust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a cooler bl= ast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by moving = air leaving the cowling? Rich =C2=A0 In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: Lynn, Et All,=20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have u= sed Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn't= have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust tempe= ratures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. They nee= ded to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. The= y have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. T= here is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative ef= fect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great to= o. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairing= s. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes= using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms= of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in fr= ont of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects= , and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work= for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend th= em. Bill Jepson=C2=A0 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover w= rote: The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps around = the engine. =C2=A0 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall=C2=A0turn to dust= in one racing season. Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radius = of bent tubes is thinner and will =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange head= er you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header loo= ks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ste= el under stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to twist = and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only = thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhau= st gasses will be close the=C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your car mu= ffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipe= s will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?=20 =C2=A0 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same lengt= h) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches with= stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a spring= fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the s= pring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece = of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. Th= e collector is supported=C2=A0 loosely=C2=A0by a bracket that moves with th= e engine.=20 =C2=A0 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine movi= ng about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-on ma= y be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =C2=A0 The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless shielding sp= aced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing between the shie= lding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperature= s under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.=20 =C2=A0 Been there. Done that. =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover =C2=A0 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between diff= icult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stai= nless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, =C2=A0and ducting airfl= ow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler over the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be heav= y, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material= for more heat isolation. On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote: So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that some= people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don't lik= e them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat unde= r the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to keep mo= st of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on the i= nside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new it= becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first ever = engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduce = oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during th= e rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of detonat= ion. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe = is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal= but unable to radiate out. =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once = it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redo= ne again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaus= t completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sens= or was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks an= d having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be loc= ated at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while= my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving = the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ag= o) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new= O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in pla= ce but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust ma= nifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I mad= e one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below t= hat, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this = cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a qui= lt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blank= et like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slide= s over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located insid= e a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a= housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too. Pics of all this and more at this link. https://goo.gl/photos/ NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo --_638C4E75-D6BF-4972-B7F9-E23674D3443E_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Hi Nigel,

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just curious.=C2=A0 What was the idea in coating the out= side of the heads?=C2=A0 The coatings are typically to block heat flow and = I=E2=80=99d think we=E2=80=99d like the heat to flow out of the heads on an= AeroVee.

 

Tracy

 

S= ent from Mail<= /a> for Windows 10

 

From: Nigel Ba= ker
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:31 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraftSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets

 

Yep. I recently did coatings to an Aerovee type engine. Both Combustion c= hambes and outside of the heads.

= I used CBC2 and TLTD from = = http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/shop-only.html\

I am in OZ but = fortunately it was available locally.

The process was straight forward and I did the curi= ng in the BBQ oven outside.

I also went ouch when I got a quote to have it done and it wa= s far cheaper to by the stuff and do it myself ( I have a small grit blaste= r so did that myself as well but that was included in the quote). I have en= ough of the stuff left over to do about another 10 sets of heads.

Cheers.

Nige.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in a= ircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, Janu= ary 24, 2017 7:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and = blankets

 =

Ouch. Anyone have any experience wit= h any of the DIY coatings? For that money, you consider building your own c= uring oven....

Charlie

On 1/23/2017 3:01 PM, Ernest Christley= wrote:

Got a quote from Jet-Hot. &n= bsp;A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for Corvair would be around $30= 0.

 

<= div>

On M= onday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /o:p>

 

<= div>

I am= interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas of sli= p joints or ball joints.

 

Also = with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter exhaust = blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a cooler blast m= odified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by moving air l= eaving the cowling?

Rich

 

In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Stan= dard Time, flyrotary@lancair= online.net writes:

Lynn, Et All,

I want to mention the alternative to heat wra= ps, ceramic coatings. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and per= formance. Early Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would st= and up to rotary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ materi= al for some time now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to = turbo header temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the insi= de and outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that ev= en help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wrap= s, and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motor= cycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my= fairing with no other changes using color change tape, but I think is was = even better than that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in= the fairing mounted low in front of the headers. This no longer was showin= g bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a t= otal loss system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them= either. I highly recommend them.

B= ill Jepson 

 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrot= e:

The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in= temps around the engine.

 

The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn = to dust in one racing season.

Literally you can crush= the header pipes with one hand. The outside radius of bent tubes is thinne= r and will  fail sooner.That bright orange header you see in tapes of = dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header looks like. How strong is = bright orange steel? Even stainless?   Steel under stress fails s= ooner.  Each down pipe should be free to twist and squirm a bit as it = heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall stainless at= that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses will be close= the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up to 1600 d= egrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the bright orang= e pipe damage anything important?

 <= /span>

Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the= same length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector at= taches with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in ca= se a spring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in= case the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know a= nd a piece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least = helpful. The collector is supported  loosely by a bracket that mo= ves with the engine.

 

Th= en a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine moving= about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-on may = be mounted to the chassis.

Non rigid mountings to ke= ep the noise down would be good.

 <= /span>

The whole system may  may be covered with .015" stainl= ess shielding spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.  Air blowing = between the shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of redu= cing temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating h= igher temps.

 

=

Been there= . Done that.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:44.55pt;background:white'>Lynn E. Han= over

 

In a message = dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

<= div>

My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere betwee= n difficult and impossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .02= 5 stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit,  and ducting= airflow through it.  Sort of a muffler over the muffler.  It'd b= e heavy, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket ma= terial for more heat isolation.

 

 

 

<= div>

On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:

 

So I'm interested to hear about = thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that some people like them and others don= 't. Also some header manufactures don't like them. But the fact is that we = have one heck of a lot of radiant heat under the cowl. Heat shields help so= me but I really just want to try to keep most of the heat going down the ex= haust pipe. I know ceramic coating on the inside of the pipe is the best so= lution, but once a pipe is no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply= and hope for it to stay. On my first ever engine build I had my rotors cer= amic coated as that was supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a l= ittle detonation incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceram= ic had come off due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel th= at ceramic coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them= as the heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.=

   But the biggest argument against ceramic = coating is that once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) w= ithout having it redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd = already had my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it wou= ld change again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great = his PLX wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a coupl= e of hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended t= hat the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" down= stream from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" down= stream. So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it = off along with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a pa= tch over it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap= , weld and re-wrap.

So as far as wraps go... lets = hear it. Good, bad or ugly.

  

 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal tur= bo shroud in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that= . The exhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal = sheild but I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably acc= ount for the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is = directly below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transf= er. I made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed tog= ether like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also co= ver with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a s= leeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which = is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's l= ocation inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over tha= t one too.

 

=

Pics of= all this and more at this link.

 


Todd Bartrim

 

C-FSTB

RV9 13Bturbo=

 

 

 

=

 

 

= --_638C4E75-D6BF-4972-B7F9-E23674D3443E_--