X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-a013e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.60] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9396633 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:05:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.60; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-aan02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aan02.mx.aol.com [172.27.19.80]) by omr-a013e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id C68443800095 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-abb06f.mail.aol.com (core-abb06.mail.aol.com [172.27.0.6]) by mtaomg-aan02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 88DEF38000081 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:05:16 -0500 (EST) Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <6162ac.33ee8041.45b7e62c@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:05:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6162ac.33ee8041.45b7e62c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.8 sub 2019 X-Originating-IP: [23.25.33.118] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1485212716; bh=tZcFzRISNVbpL/iMtxtitfksTCg8e9SykzUamcK8WCI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TXBkgeT5WIMp08EinL1CHYRkbnP+x3lL67IUWzdPOhMbU3GvurwZ6vBK/UjHe5dhV Gxjw5ohtHuBiBM5qdpwB4vg6BUyMJJo2Un2hxpFuGv5vBsuXlCLnplwL6jjigLPEqd 0LtbCg0dVAOAVOfTxw4UXKI7MRi/CWGazx/PkelE= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b135058868c2c3b0d --part1_6162ac.33ee8041.45b7e62c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bill =20 =20 In a message dated 1/23/2017 2:46:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Rich, =20 anything that keeps the heat in will make the exhaust exiting hotter. =20 (Obviously) On a metal prop I doubt it would be a problem unless you run= the =20 exhaust very close to the prop. Various composite props you better ask the= =20 manufacturer, it is a concern. You can also run the exit into a short annu= lus =20 and draw air in around the exhaust to help cool it quickly. Like a really= =20 short augmenter. You would need to test the heat, but I haven't heard of= =20 anyone having a big problem with this and wraps and ceramic coatings have= been=20 around for 20 years. Bill On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:10 PM, ARGOLDMAN <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas= =20 of slip joints or ball joints. =20 Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter = =20 exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a coole= r =20 blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by movi= ng =20 air leaving the cowling? Rich =20 =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 _flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) writes= : Lynn, Et All, =20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have= =20 used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot =20 didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhau= st=20 temperatures. They have had an 1800=B0F+ material for some time now. They= needed=20 to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. They= =20 have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes.= There=20 is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative effec= t=20 is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too.= I=20 have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings.= I=20 measured a 30=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes using= =20 color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of= =20 radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in fron= t of=20 the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and= =20 survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work for= =20 those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them. Bill Jepson=20 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps aroun= d=20 the engine. =20 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust in= =20 one racing season. Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radiu= s=20 of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orange header= =20 you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header look= s=20 like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? Steel under=20 stress fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist and squirm= a bit as=20 it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall=20 stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses= will be=20 close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up to 1600= =20 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the bright =20 orange pipe damage anything important?=20 =20 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same=20 length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attach= es=20 with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a spring fai= ls.=20 Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the spring= =20 fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece of= spring=20 will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. The=20 collector is supported loosely by a bracket that moves with the engine.= =20 =20 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine=20 moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so= -on=20 may be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =20 The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding space= d=20 one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the shielding an= d=20 the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperatures under= =20 hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.=20 =20 Been there. Done that. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 _flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) writes= : =20 My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between = =20 difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025=20 stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting airf= low=20 through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy, but the= shroud=20 could have been lined on the inside with blanket material for more heat= =20 isolation. =20 =20 On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim=20 <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wro= te: =20 =20 So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that=20 some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don= 't=20 like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat= =20 under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to= keep=20 most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on= the=20 inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new= =20 it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first= ever=20 engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduc= e=20 oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during= =20 the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of=20 detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of= the=20 pipe is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by th= e=20 metal but unable to radiate out. But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's=20 done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone= again.=20 A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaust=20 completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t then=20 somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sensor wa= s,=20 blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks and havi= ng=20 to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be located at= =20 an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while my ol= d=20 narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving the ol= d =20 sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ago) =20 incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new= O2 bung=20 downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. =20 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place= =20 but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust=20 manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but= I made=20 one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest=20 source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below that= ,=20 I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this=20 cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a= quilt.=20 The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blanket= =20 like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slides= =20 over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located insid= e a=20 housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a= =20 housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too. Pics of all this and more at this link. _https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jhttps://g_=20 (https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88)=20 =20 Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo --part1_6162ac.33ee8041.45b7e62c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Bill
 
In a message dated 1/23/2017 2:46:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Rich,=20
anything that keeps the heat in will make the exhaust exiting hotte= r.=20 (Obviously) On a metal prop I doubt it would be a problem unless you run= the=20 exhaust very close to the prop. Various composite props you better ask= the=20 manufacturer, it is a concern. You can also run the exit into a short an= nulus=20 and draw air in around the exhaust to help cool it quickly. Like a reall= y=20 short augmenter. You would need to test the heat, but I haven't heard of= =20 anyone having a big problem with this and wraps and ceramic coatings hav= e been=20 around for 20 years.
Bill

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:10 PM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in th= e=20 areas of slip joints or ball joints.
 
Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a= hotter=20 exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a= cooler=20 blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by= moving=20 air leaving the cowling?
Rich
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,= flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Lynn, Et All,=20
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatin= gs. I=20 have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early= Jet-Hot=20 didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary= =20 exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=B0F+ material for some= time now.=20 They needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header=20 temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside and= =20 outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that ev= en=20 help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat= wraps,=20 and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing= =20 motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=B0 difference= inside=20 my fairing with no other changes using color change tape, but I thin= k is=20 was even better than that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery= =20 located in the fairing mounted low in front of the headers. This no= longer=20 was showing bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endu= rance=20 race as a total loss system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't= =20 sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them.
Bill Jepson 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in= temps=20 around the engine.
 
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall&nbs= p;turn=20 to dust in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The= outside=20 radius of bent tubes is thinner and will  fail sooner.That br= ight=20 orange header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your= heat=20 taped header looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even= =20 stainless?   Steel under stress fails sooner.  Each= down=20 pipe should be free to twist and squirm a bit as it heats and cool= s.=20 Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall stainless at that.= If you=20 wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses will be close=20 the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up= to 1600=20 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the br= ight=20 orange pipe damage anything important?
 
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly= the=20 same length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Coll= ector=20 attaches with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail= safe=20 in case a spring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spr= ing=20 loosely in case the spring fails (they like to sing along with the= =20 engine) you know and a piece of spring will find a place to get st= uck=20 that will be the least helpful. The collector is supported = =20 loosely by a bracket that moves with the engine.
 
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for= the=20 engine moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system,= =20 mufflers and so-on may be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
 
The whole system may  may be covered with .015" stainles= s=20 shielding spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.  Air blo= wing=20 between the shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good jo= b of=20 reducing temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding fro= m=20 radiating higher temps.
 
Been there. Done that.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Ti= me, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
My=20 problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere betw= een=20 difficult and impossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler= in a=20 .025 stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, &nb= sp;and=20 ducting airflow through it.  Sort of a muffler over the=20 muffler.  It'd be heavy, but the shroud could have been lin= ed on=20 the inside with blanket material for more heat isolation.=




On Friday, January 20= , 2017 1:48=20 AM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:


So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps?= I know=20 that some people like them and others don't. Also some header=20 manufactures don't like them. But the fact is that we have one= heck of=20 a lot of radiant heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but= I=20 really just want to try to keep most of the heat going down the= =20 exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on the inside of the pipe= is the=20 best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new it becomes more= =20 difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first ever eng= ine=20 build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to red= uce=20 oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I foun= d=20 during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to= the=20 shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coati= ng the=20 outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the heat= is=20 still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.
   But the biggest argument against ceramic coati= ng is=20 that once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.)= without=20 having it redone again. A good example of this just happened as= I'd=20 already had my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting= that=20 it would change again... But then somebody on this list started= saying=20 how great his PLX wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and sud= denly=20 I'm out a couple of hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust= =20 because it's recommended that the sensor be located at an 15 deg= ree=20 angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while my old na= rrow=20 band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving the= old=20 sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long= ago)=20 incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then insta= ll a=20 new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and=20 re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
  
 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal tur= bo=20 shroud in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit= over=20 that. The exhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a st= ck=20 Mazda metal sheild but I made one to fit over that as I feel the= se 2=20 items probably account for the largest source of under-cowl heat= and=20 since the oli cooler is directly below that, I want to eliminate= that=20 source of radiant heat transfer. I made this cover using 2 diffe= rent=20 styles of welding blanket sewed together like a quilt. The ball= joint=20 in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blanket like= this=20 rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slides= over=20 the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located= inside=20 a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location= =20 inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over= that=20 one too.

Pics of all this and more at this link.

Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9=20 13Bturbo


=

=
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