X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Steven W. Boese" Received: from [65.55.169.103] (HELO na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.8) with ESMTPS id 8354731 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:23:41 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.169.103; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uwy.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-uwyo-edu; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=vBmblqPrSExdLPYbBwr5bAE33jZYh+J0OQhPzfoMstU=; b=IVf9vSDy3E60Xhdz76jbrNQJC6HBhcADhmPHM5eEpLckqloVgtlI1A6KOCnyAZcuupczAkgi/LwsrYh4JhucF/lyK3WdT403nGjWqVIrsxOQhFuERMcxTHT73FXUEgSKqfjOzSHCVje6MNzGk/1N5wIzKy7j/L4FTTKZwd90sbg= Received: from BLUPR0501MB2148.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.154) by BLUPR0501MB2146.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.390.13; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:23:20 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB2148.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.154]) by BLUPR0501MB2148.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.154]) with mapi id 15.01.0390.013; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:23:20 +0000 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Thread-Index: AQHRV5o8Iao13TUMVEiSBkdTGUyvZZ8Mk1Ye Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:23:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=SBoese@uwyo.edu; x-originating-ip: [69.146.103.188] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;BLUPR0501MB2146;5:VRXYr8yLzwohZy8y2R+PzlXpCMUK/71LCGWVJR0H+/WKfo4pHJQsECd+14Q1bVH5+z3P4efwXMveErnNEv2owKZJ1+oU9sKAAthwZMPObh4XDSsDYVdb408ERv9lkBtkSlH7dkITWneyj9opFwz8ng==;24:A529TpF4NkFq2HFTGopwSPrZuszJ+VOe8eMmko8oY9Fc+M8MvvsqnbPixRuSo7NH/EgKAYH/9LWFGdxa7YmEbq+dzB+FdsgN/UgAzTQ6iJc= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2146; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c580d92c-e4a9-4616-e54a-08d325bcfc6c x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(123027)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(520078)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046);SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2146;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2146; x-forefront-prvs: 083289FD26 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(279900001)(85664002)(479174004)(504954002)(24454002)(377454003)(189002)(199003)(3905003)(76104003)(54356999)(5001960100002)(19625215002)(74316001)(15975445007)(19625305001)(2950100001)(3846002)(76576001)(77096005)(1096002)(110136002)(102836003)(1220700001)(2900100001)(107886002)(11100500001)(6116002)(50986999)(105586002)(106356001)(5008740100001)(76176999)(5002640100001)(586003)(5003600100002)(106116001)(33656002)(16236675004)(66066001)(81156007)(97736004)(19617315012)(89122001)(99286002)(80792005)(19580395003)(189998001)(101416001)(19580405001)(2906002)(122556002)(87936001)(90282001)(10400500002)(88552002)(450100001)(5004730100002)(19627405001)(86362001)(40100003)(75432002)(92566002)(5890100001)(15395725005)(3280700002);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2146;H:BLUPR0501MB2148.namprd05.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;PTR:InfoNoRecords;MX:1;A:1;LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: uwyo.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BLUPR0501MB2148C73CA72E3F1F46013C96B9C70BLUPR0501MB2148_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uwyo.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Jan 2016 19:23:20.7352 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f9cdd7ad-825d-4601-8e9c-a325e02d52da X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2146 --_000_BLUPR0501MB2148C73CA72E3F1F46013C96B9C70BLUPR0501MB2148_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Turning on the cold start switch is intended to give you a much richer mixt= ure when both the primary and secondary injectors are enabled. So your sys= tem is working correctly in this regard. Disabling the secondary injectors with the DPDT switch is intended to both = cut the power to the secondary injectors and enable the cold start function= (as if the cold switch was turned on). This should have no effect on the = engine at MAP below the staging threshold since the engine would be running= on only the primary injectors just like it was before flipping the seconda= ry disable switch. Your previous statement: "With the engine idling at about 1400 rpm, and the mixture at about 14.7, I= turned off the secondary and the engine ran a little differently and the m= ixture went to about 13.0." is troubling since doing this should have had no effect whatsoever. Is the= mixture change persistent and reproducible? If the mixture eventually (wi= thin a few seconds) returns to the original value, then your system is most= likely working correctly in this regard too. Steve Boese ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of = Bill Bradburry Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 10:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happe= ning? Steve, I need to try this: At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the= engine to quit =96 if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recov= er using the SEC injectors. This verifies that both the primary and seconda= ry injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is = below the staging threshold as suggested above. I haven=92t tried to recover the engine with the cold start after shutting = off the primary. Cold start gives me a much richer mixture than I get by t= urning off the secondary. I need to see if I can tell what is happening to= cause the difference. Bill ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 11:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happe= ning? Jeff, I have taken the liberty of inserting the bold faced comments below. Steve Boese On Jan 25, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Jeff Whaley > wrote: Bill, something you may want to try (if only temporary) is to separate the = Cold Start function from the Injector Disable functions; I believe this mak= es it is easier to tell what is going on. Wire the Cold Start switch independently to pin 30. Use one toggle switch to power the PRI and another to power the SEC injecto= rs. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the SEC injectors should= do nothing. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS ON, the engine will run very rough due = to fuel-doubling to PRI injectors =96the fuel is not doubled by the primary= injectors, but rather the secondary injectors are delivering fuel now too.= Still, this is a handy feature for true COLD starting. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the= engine to quit =96 if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recov= er using the SEC injectors. This verifies that both the primary and second= ary injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is= below the staging threshold as suggested above. At >4000 rpm and above staging: disabling either INJ should cause the engin= e to stumble =96 if you now set the CS to ON the engine should recover usin= g the remaining injectors at twice the original pulse width. other injector= s. My engine is wired this way permanently =85. So is mine. Jeff From: Bill Bradburry > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 08:44:19 -0600 To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' > Steve and Tracy, The injectors are all four the yellow injectors, 450 CC, I think. The EC-2= was in Mode 0 when I tested it yesterday. No, unfortunately, I have not gotten the signal recording setup going. Good Luck with the slicing and dicing, Tracy. Is this a second hip or a re= do of the first? Bill On 1/20/2016 12:55 PM, Tracy Crook wrote: Steve=92s description of how the EC2/3 works was correct. Many get this bit confused but The intention with the disable switch was t= o use a DPDT switch for the disables. When in the disable position, the o= ther pole of the switch is used to activate (switch to ground) the Cold Sta= rt input to the EC2/3 at the same time. This eliminates having to turn off= the CS switch when disabling a set of injectors and enables the EC2 to ope= rate on either set over the full range of manifold pressures. The EC2/3 is= able to see when you have disabled the primaries and operate the secondary= =92s even though engine is operating below stage point. I=92ve been out of touch lately and will be for awhile. Need to have my hi= p replaced (again). Tracy Sent from Mail for Windows= 10 From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Steve, I think my engine dies and has little effect when I turn off the primary an= d secondary respectively. I will have to investigate this when I get the s= witches replaced (I plan to replace both) I may have something miswired?? It is cold, maybe Tracy is back in Florida and will chime in. Bill From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill, I have tested the injector disable function with my EC2's. With the power = interrupted to the primary injectors and the cold switch on, the engine run= s on the secondary injectors at MAP below the staging threshold. I don't k= now the details of how the controller treats the cold switch, but it is pos= sible that with the cold switch on, the controller increases the fuel flow = by using both the primary and secondary injectors at MAP below the staging = threshold, and doubles the injector pulse width at MAP above the staging th= reshold. I remember investigating this when first using the controllers bu= t don't remember the exact details. My backup system does work at low MAP. Steve From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:15 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bobby, I am sorry I was not clear and the reason was that I was not clear myself. The injector disable switches are for in case you lose an injector in fligh= t and the engine starts to run on only one rotor. You can disable either o= f the primary or secondary injectors which will take the failed injector ou= t of the circuit. Tracy says you should test this to make sure that it works. That is where = my question came from. You can only test the disable switches when the eng= ine is not staged. If the engine is staged, and you turn off the primary i= njectors, the engine will die because the secondary injectors are not runni= ng, and if you turn off the secondary injectors, the engine will run rich b= ecause you turned on the cold start but the secondaries were not running an= yway. I am not sure what would happen if you lost a primary injector in flight, d= isabled the primary injectors, then reduced power to the staging point in o= rder to land??? I suspect all would get quiet! :>( Bill From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill, I=92m not sure I understand the question. If your referring to my =93cente= r off switch position=94 it=92s not used in flight. Intentionally anyway :)= It=92s used to shut down the engine. Primary injector switch of course. Sa= me switch used for both primary and secondary injectors. Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:55 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Changing the subject a minute=85How do you disable the secondary=92s when t= he engine is staged?? They are not running anyway??? Bill -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_BLUPR0501MB2148C73CA72E3F1F46013C96B9C70BLUPR0501MB2148_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,


Turning on the cold start switch is intended to give you a muc= h richer mixture when both the primary and secondary injectors are enabled.=   So your system is working correctly in this regard.


Disabling the secondary injectors with the DPDT switch is intended = to both cut the power to the secondary injectors and enable the cold s= tart function (as if the cold switch was turned on).  This should have= no effect on the engine at MAP below the staging threshold since the engine would be running on only the primary injec= tors just like it was before flipping the secondary disable switch. 

Your previous statement:

"= With the engine idling at about 1400 rpm, and the mixture at about 14.7, I = turned off the secondary and the engine ran a little differently and the mi= xture went to about 13.0."

is troubling since doing this should have had no effect whatsoever. = ; Is the mixture change persistent and reproducible?  If the mixt= ure eventually (within a few seconds) returns to the original value, then y= our system is most likely working correctly in this regard too.


Steve Boese

From: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Bill Bradburry <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may b= e happening?
 

Steve,

 

I need to try this:

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should= cause the engine to quit =96 if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC injectors. This verifies that both the primary and secondary i= njectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is belo= w the staging threshold as suggested above.

I haven=92t tried to recover the engi= ne with the cold start after shutting off the primary.  Cold start giv= es me a much richer mixture than I get by turning off the secondary.  I need to see if I can tell what is happening to = cause the difference.

 

Bill

 

From:<= /span> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monday, January 25, = 2016 11:00 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: p= arts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening?

 

Jeff,

I have taken the liberty of inserting the bold faced comments below= .

Steve Boese


On Jan 25, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bill, something you may want to try (if = only temporary) is to separate the Cold Start function from the Injector Di= sable functions; I believe this makes it is easier to tell what is going on.

Wire the Cold Start switch independently= to pin 30.

Use one toggle switch to power the PRI a= nd another to power the SEC injectors.

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF,= disabling the SEC injectors should do nothing.

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS ON, = the engine will run very rough due to fuel-doubling to PRI injectors =96= the fuel is not doubled by the primary injectors, but rather the secondary injector= s are delivering fuel now too. Still, this is a handy featu= re for true COLD starting.

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF,= disabling the PRI should cause the engine to quit =96 if you quickly set t= he CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC injectors.  This verifi= es that both the primary and secondary injectors are delivering fuel when t= he cold switch is on and the MAP is below the staging threshold as suggeste= d above.

 

At >4000 rpm and above staging: disab= ling either INJ should cause the engine to stumble =96 if you now set the C= S to ON the engine should recover using the remaining injectors at twice the orig= inal pulse width. other injectors.

 

My engine is wired this way permanently = =85. So is mine.

Jeff

 

flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >

flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net>

= <image0= 01.gif>

<= image002.gif>

Steve and Tracy,

 

The injectors are all four the yellow= injectors, 450 CC, I think.  The EC-2 was in Mode 0 when I tested it = yesterday.

No, unfortunately, I have not gotten = the signal recording setup going.

 

Good Luck with the slicing and dicing= , Tracy.  Is this a second hip or a redo of the first?

 

Bill

 


On 1/20/2016 12:55 PM, Tracy Crook wrote:

Steve=92s description of how the EC2/3 works was correct.

 

Many get this bit confused but The intention with  the disable= switch was to use a DPDT switch for the disables.   When in the = disable position, the other pole of the switch is used to activate (switch to ground) the Cold Start input to the EC2/3 at the sa= me time.  This eliminates having to turn off the CS switch when disabl= ing a set of injectors and enables the EC2 to operate on either set over th= e full range of manifold pressures.  The EC2/3 is able to see when you have disabled the primaries and operate = the secondary=92s  even though engine is operating below stage point.<= /span>

 

I=92ve been out of touch lately and will be for awhile.  Need = to have my hip replaced (again).

 

Tracy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, January 2= 0, 2016 1:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= hat do you think may be happening?

 

Steve,

I think my engine dies and has little= effect when I turn off the primary and secondary respectively.  I wil= l have to investigate this when I get the switches replaced (I plan to replace both)  I may have something miswired??

It is cold, maybe Tracy is back in Fl= orida and will chime in.

 

Bill

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 2= 0, 2016 12:32 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= hat do you think may be happening?

 

Bill,<= /font>

 =

I have tested= the injector disable function with my EC2's.  With the power interrup= ted to the primary injectors and the cold switch on, the engine runs on the secondary injectors at MAP below the staging th= reshold.  I don't know the details of how the controller treats the co= ld switch, but it is possible that with the cold switch on, the controller = increases the fuel flow by using both the primary and secondary injectors at MAP below the staging threshold, an= d doubles the injector pulse width at MAP above the staging threshold. = ; I remember investigating this when first using the controllers but don't = remember the exact details.  My backup system does work at low MAP.

 =

Steve<= /font>

 

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 2= 0, 2016 11:15 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= hat do you think may be happening?

 

Bobby= ,

I am = sorry I was not clear and the reason was that I was not clear myself.

 = ;

The i= njector disable switches are for in case you lose an injector in flight and= the engine starts to run on only one rotor.  You can disable either of the primary or secondary injectors which will ta= ke the failed injector out of the circuit.

Tracy= says you should test this to make sure that it works.  That is where = my question came from.  You can only test the disable switches when th= e engine is not staged.  If the engine is staged, and you turn off the= primary injectors, the engine will die because the secondary injectors are not running, and if you turn off the secondary= injectors, the engine will run rich because you turned on the cold start b= ut the secondaries were not running anyway.

 = ;

I am = not sure what would happen if you lost a primary injector in flight, disabl= ed the primary injectors, then reduced power to the staging point in order to land???  I suspect all would get qui= et!  :>(

 = ;

Bill

 = ;

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 2= 0, 2016 11:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= hat do you think may be happening?

 

Bill,

 

I=92m not sure I understand the question.  If your refer= ring to my =93center off switch position=94 it=92s not used in flight. Intentionally anyway J It=92s used to shut down the engine. Primary injector switch of course. Sa= me switch used for both primary and secondary injectors.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 2= 0, 2016 10:55 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= hat do you think may be happening?

 

 

 

Chang= ing the subject a minute=85How do you disable the secondary=92s when the en= gine is staged??  They are not running anyway???

 = ;

Bill

 

 





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