X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Bill Bradburry" Received: from vms173025pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.25] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.8) with ESMTPS id 8354425 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:59:47 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.173.25; envelope-from=bbradburry@verizon.net Received: from Desktop ([173.71.14.135]) by vms173025.mailsrvcs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.32.0 64bit (built Jul 16 2014)) with ESMTPA id <0O1I003DRSMH0A60@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:59:06 -0600 (CST) X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=Nc0brD34 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YsSROtz1JO3+GnD2bqMDlQ==:117 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=oR5dmqMzAAAA:8 a=7aQ_Q-yQQ-AA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=qSZO6PQIHFrzbD-JW2wA:9 a=OqcU1xG2ZX5aUe88:21 a=U-l3jRhf3Ith7NkZ:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Tr8nuKu5vpAA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=G5hpklOFEVbt_wjtrbkA:9 a=919JE0D6t4Hy6Ymf:21 a=mPXfJ-a6SVvH0Cz6:21 a=nx2Bp71HdoPljlNA:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-reply-to: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:59:13 -0600 Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01D15767.CF095B80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AdFXkfTWlZR8pf9OTd6XM8JyxhBalQAB4pTg X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01D15767.CF095B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, I need to try this: At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the engine to quit - if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC injectors. This verifies that both the primary and secondary injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is below the staging threshold as suggested above. I haven't tried to recover the engine with the cold start after shutting off the primary. Cold start gives me a much richer mixture than I get by turning off the secondary. I need to see if I can tell what is happening to cause the difference. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 11:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Jeff, I have taken the liberty of inserting the bold faced comments below. Steve Boese On Jan 25, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: Bill, something you may want to try (if only temporary) is to separate the Cold Start function from the Injector Disable functions; I believe this makes it is easier to tell what is going on. Wire the Cold Start switch independently to pin 30. Use one toggle switch to power the PRI and another to power the SEC injectors. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the SEC injectors should do nothing. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS ON, the engine will run very rough due to fuel-doubling to PRI injectors -the fuel is not doubled by the primary injectors, but rather the secondary injectors are delivering fuel now too. Still, this is a handy feature for true COLD starting. At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the engine to quit - if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC injectors. This verifies that both the primary and secondary injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is below the staging threshold as suggested above. At >4000 rpm and above staging: disabling either INJ should cause the engine to stumble - if you now set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the remaining injectors at twice the original pulse width. other injectors. My engine is wired this way permanently .. So is mine. Jeff From: Bill Bradburry Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 08:44:19 -0600 To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Steve and Tracy, The injectors are all four the yellow injectors, 450 CC, I think. The EC-2 was in Mode 0 when I tested it yesterday. No, unfortunately, I have not gotten the signal recording setup going. Good Luck with the slicing and dicing, Tracy. Is this a second hip or a redo of the first? Bill On 1/20/2016 12:55 PM, Tracy Crook wrote: Steve's description of how the EC2/3 works was correct. Many get this bit confused but The intention with the disable switch was to use a DPDT switch for the disables. When in the disable position, the other pole of the switch is used to activate (switch to ground) the Cold Start input to the EC2/3 at the same time. This eliminates having to turn off the CS switch when disabling a set of injectors and enables the EC2 to operate on either set over the full range of manifold pressures. The EC2/3 is able to see when you have disabled the primaries and operate the secondary's even though engine is operating below stage point. I've been out of touch lately and will be for awhile. Need to have my hip replaced (again). Tracy Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Steve, I think my engine dies and has little effect when I turn off the primary and secondary respectively. I will have to investigate this when I get the switches replaced (I plan to replace both) I may have something miswired?? It is cold, maybe Tracy is back in Florida and will chime in. Bill From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill, I have tested the injector disable function with my EC2's. With the power interrupted to the primary injectors and the cold switch on, the engine runs on the secondary injectors at MAP below the staging threshold. I don't know the details of how the controller treats the cold switch, but it is possible that with the cold switch on, the controller increases the fuel flow by using both the primary and secondary injectors at MAP below the staging threshold, and doubles the injector pulse width at MAP above the staging threshold. I remember investigating this when first using the controllers but don't remember the exact details. My backup system does work at low MAP. Steve From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:15 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bobby, I am sorry I was not clear and the reason was that I was not clear myself. The injector disable switches are for in case you lose an injector in flight and the engine starts to run on only one rotor. You can disable either of the primary or secondary injectors which will take the failed injector out of the circuit. Tracy says you should test this to make sure that it works. That is where my question came from. You can only test the disable switches when the engine is not staged. If the engine is staged, and you turn off the primary injectors, the engine will die because the secondary injectors are not running, and if you turn off the secondary injectors, the engine will run rich because you turned on the cold start but the secondaries were not running anyway. I am not sure what would happen if you lost a primary injector in flight, disabled the primary injectors, then reduced power to the staging point in order to land??? I suspect all would get quiet! :>( Bill From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill, I'm not sure I understand the question. If your referring to my "center off switch position" it's not used in flight. Intentionally anyway :-) It's used to shut down the engine. Primary injector switch of course. Same switch used for both primary and secondary injectors. Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:55 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Changing the subject a minute.How do you disable the secondary's when the engine is staged?? They are not running anyway??? Bill -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01D15767.CF095B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve,

 

I need to try = this:

At 1400 rpm with both INJ = ON and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the engine to quit – if you quickly set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC = injectors. This verifies that both the primary and = secondary injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is = below the staging threshold as suggested above.

I haven’t tried to recover = the engine with the cold start after shutting off the primary.  Cold start = gives me a much richer mixture than I get by turning off the secondary.  I = need to see if I can tell what is happening to cause the = difference.

 

Bill

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monday, January 25, = 2016 11:00 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be happening?

 

Jeff,

I have taken the liberty of inserting the = bold faced comments below.

Steve Boese


On Jan 25, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bill, something you may want to = try (if only temporary) is to separate the Cold Start function from the Injector Disable functions; I believe this makes it is easier to tell what is = going on.

Wire the Cold Start switch = independently to pin 30.

Use one toggle switch to power = the PRI and another to power the SEC = injectors.

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON = and CS OFF, disabling the SEC injectors should do = nothing.

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON = and CS ON, the engine will run very rough due to fuel-doubling to PRI injectors = –the fuel is not doubled by the primary = injectors, but rather the secondary injectors are delivering fuel now too. = Still, this is a handy feature for true COLD starting. =

At 1400 rpm with both INJ ON = and CS OFF, disabling the PRI should cause the engine to quit – if you quickly = set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the SEC injectors. =  This verifies that both the primary and = secondary injectors are delivering fuel when the cold switch is on and the MAP is = below the staging threshold as suggested = above.

 

At >4000 rpm and above = staging: disabling either INJ should cause the engine to stumble – if you = now set the CS to ON the engine should recover using the remaining injectors at twice the original pulse = width. other injectors.

 

My engine is wired this way = permanently …. So is = mine.

Jeff<= o:p>

 

From:

Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

RE: [FlyRotary] Re: parts upgrade; was: What do you think may be = happening?

Date:

Mon, 25 Jan 2016 08:44:19 = -0600

To:

'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

<image001.gif>

<image002.gif><= /o:p>

Steve and Tracy,

 

The injectors are all four the yellow injectors, 450 CC, I think.  The EC-2 was in Mode 0 when I tested it = yesterday.

No, unfortunately, I have not gotten the signal recording = setup going.

 

Good Luck with the slicing and dicing, Tracy.  Is this a second hip = or a redo of the first?

 

Bill

 


On 1/20/2016 12:55 PM, Tracy = Crook wrote:

Steve’s description of how the EC2/3 = works was correct.

 

Many get this bit confused but The intention = with  the disable switch was to use a DPDT switch for the = disables.   When in the disable position, the other pole of the switch is used to = activate (switch to ground) the Cold Start input to the EC2/3 at the same = time.  This eliminates having to turn off the CS switch when disabling a set of injectors and enables the EC2 to operate on either set over the full = range of manifold pressures.  The EC2/3 is able to see when you have = disabled the primaries and operate the secondary’s  even though engine is operating below stage point.

 

I’ve been out of touch lately and will = be for awhile.  Need to have my hip replaced = (again).

 

Tracy

 

Sent from Mail for = Windows 10

 


From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, January = 20, 2016 1:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Steve,

I think my engine dies and has = little effect when I turn off the primary and secondary respectively.  I = will have to investigate this when I get the switches replaced (I plan to = replace both)  I may have something = miswired??

It is cold, maybe Tracy is back in Florida and will chime in.

 

Bill =

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January = 20, 2016 12:32 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Bill,<= /u5:p>

 =

I have tested the = injector disable function with my EC2's.  With the power interrupted to the primary injectors and the cold switch on, the engine runs on the secondary = injectors at MAP below the staging threshold.  I don't know the details of how = the controller treats the cold switch, but it is possible that with the cold = switch on, the controller increases the fuel flow by using both the primary and secondary injectors at MAP below the staging threshold, and doubles the injector pulse width at MAP above the staging threshold.  I = remember investigating this when first using the controllers but don't remember = the exact details.  My backup system does work at low = MAP.

 =

Steve<= /u5:p>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> on behalf of Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Wednesday, January = 20, 2016 11:15 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Bobby,

I am sorry I was = not clear and the reason was that I was not clear = myself.

 

The injector = disable switches are for in case you lose an injector in flight and the engine = starts to run on only one rotor.  You can disable either of the primary or secondary injectors which will take the failed injector out of the = circuit.

Tracy says you should test this to make sure that it works.  = That is where my question came from.  You can only test the disable = switches when the engine is not staged.  If the engine is staged, and you = turn off the primary injectors, the engine will die because the secondary = injectors are not running, and if you turn off the secondary injectors, the engine = will run rich because you turned on the cold start but the secondaries were not = running anyway.

 

I am not sure = what would happen if you lost a primary injector in flight, disabled the primary = injectors, then reduced power to the staging point in order to land???  I = suspect all would get quiet!  :>(

 

Bill =

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January = 20, 2016 11:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Bill,=

 

I’m = not sure I understand the question.  If your referring to my “center off = switch position” it’s not used in flight. Intentionally anyway = J It’s used to shut down the engine. Primary injector switch of = course. Same switch used for both primary and secondary injectors. =

 

Bobby=

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January = 20, 2016 10:55 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

 <= /font>

 

Changing the = subject a minute…How do you disable the secondary’s when the engine is staged??  They are not running = anyway???

 

Bill =

 

 





--
= 
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http:=
//mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the = addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in = error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal = records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. =

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