X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Bill Bradburry" Received: from vms173023pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.23] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.8) with ESMTPS id 8331743 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 Jan 2016 15:01:25 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.173.23; envelope-from=bbradburry@verizon.net Received: from Desktop ([173.71.14.135]) by vms173023.mailsrvcs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.32.0 64bit (built Jul 16 2014)) with ESMTPA id <0O12008PBA9T4L70@vms173023.mailsrvcs.net> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:01:06 -0600 (CST) X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=EdU1O6SC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YsSROtz1JO3+GnD2bqMDlQ==:117 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=oR5dmqMzAAAA:8 a=7aQ_Q-yQQ-AA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=VlnggUpFB89BVsEm9yAA:9 a=cbfjey7AL2HKRY5S:21 a=K8kEEn1blSGIluTb:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=u0JtQaMbdk-_el9PfLkA:9 a=goeUN3y-RYT-X0Ik:21 a=qlgYWss2Y71KOSXH:21 a=QJz8lGgNWHdBS_Fk:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-reply-to: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:01:06 -0600 Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01D15066.587EB440" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AdFQd47xo0azsuWxR9CDNVFoKKh+PwAIJh7g X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01D15066.587EB440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bobby, I am finally hangared at Mesquite after a year and 7 months on the waiting list! Let me know the next time you are going to fly in and I will try and meet you there. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill I should have said I make mixture adjustments during takeoff roll and climb out. I'm under boost 36-39" MP and the prop is still adjusting pitch. Intake temps vary with OAT and the temp sensor measures before the super charger. I also think my fuel pressure regulator may be a little inconstant. Anytime I make rpm changes with the prop controller I'm prepared to make a small mixture adjustment. Particularly at MP greater than 32". I've used the climb and descent tuning methods with mixed results. What airport are you at? I'm in Dallas regularity and have been landing at Mesquite. Bobby Sent from my iPad On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Thanks, Bobby. A while back I set my autopilot for a 300 fpm climb and then set the EC-2 in mode 9 and let it adjust the MAP table as I climbed. Each time it changed to a new address, it initially dropped off in a deep hole and I had to use the mixture knob to keep the engine going until the mode 9 got it close, then I set the mixture in the center as well as the program knob until it hit the next address as I climbed. I did this up to 10K feet. You might get results with this method to eliminate the need to adjust the mixture?? I will check your suggestions when I go back out. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 2:46 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Hello Bill Here's a few more things to check. MP pressure lines to the EC2 and fuel pressure regulator. My EFIS shares a line with the B Controller sensor and I recently noted a large delta between the EFIS and EM3 (dedicated A controller line) MP during climb out. The pressure evened out but I think I was close to pattern altitude when it did. Large mixture changes were needed during the event. Its possible a line was pinched and I now have bulkhead fittings through the firewall and will replace the tubing possibly tomorrow. Before the bulkhead fitting the lines shared a firewall pass through with lots of wires. Fuel pressure regulator. Dragging diaphragm? Air temp sensor. B Controller? Damaged fuel mixture knob? Wiring? I always need to make a small mixture adjustment during climb. I think it may the load changes with the electric prop. Bobby Sent from my iPad On Jan 15, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Steve, I suppose that would be the secondary injector disable switch. That would explain the engine going lean, I am not certain how the engine going rich would play in unless the problem somehow involved the cold start function. That could be somehow possible since the same switch would be involved in both functions. I will check that circuit out and see if I can find a bad connection or switch. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:52 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? Bill, It may be that you have an intermittent problem with the power supply to the secondary fuel injectors. Dennis had a similar problem that may have been traced to a switch. The system would operate normally at MAP less than the staging point but have problems when all four injectors were required. Steve Boese On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: I am a little confused as to what may be going on with my EC-2. I recently had an incident where the engine went very lean just after take off and during the climb out to pattern altitude. I didn't do any troubleshooting. I just set the mixture control to as rich as possible and continued in the pattern to land. On the ground, I could find no problems with fuel, either tank, fuel pressure, etc. I decided to follow Steve's procedure below. After doing this procedure, the engine ran smoothly from idle to 22 inches on the ground. I put it into mode 9 and let it change a few spots on the MAP. Almost all the MAP table was still set at zero. I taxied out to fly and during the takeoff run, at about 29 inches and 7100 rpm, the engine went very rich, 10:1. I adjusted the mixture knob during the takeoff run to about 9-9:30 o'clock. At about 200 feet of altitude, the mixture suddenly went to about 17:1. I moved the mixture knob to about 3 o'clock, but it really didn't help much. When I got to pattern altitude and pulled the power back, the mixture seemed to stabilize at around 13 or so. I made the landing and back to the hangar with no incident. On the ground again I checked the MAP and the table was at zero at all the places the engine had been operating during the climb out. Any ideas? Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 1:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning Steve, The following assumes that there are no problems with CAS or ignition: After setting the controller back to all default program values and depending on the update version of your controller, the following excerpt from archive message #54156 of Mar 6, 2011 may be of interest: " The tuning procedure then becomes the same whether the primary and secondary injector flow rates are different or identical: a. Set the staging threshold at a MAP corresponding to the high end of the primary injector flow limit using mode 7. (For 40 lb injectors, about 20" MAP works well.) b. Adjust Mode 3 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP just below the staging threshold MAP. c. Adjust mode 6 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP just above the staging threshold MAP. d. Adjust mode 2 for best operation at minimum idle MAP. e. Adjust the mixture table throughout the useable MAP range using mode 1 or 9 to keep the O2 sensor reading mid scale. (To be honest, I skip step "e" and simply use the manual mixture control to adjust the mixture in cruise.) " Steve Boese RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2

Bobby,

 

I am finally hangared at Mesquite after a year and 7 months = on the waiting list!  Let me know the next time you are going to fly in = and I will try and meet you there.

 

Bill

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Saturday, January = 16, 2016 10:04 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Bill

 

I should have said I make mixture adjustments during takeoff = roll and climb out. I'm under boost 36-39" MP and the prop is still = adjusting pitch. Intake temps vary with OAT and the temp sensor measures before = the super charger. I also think my fuel pressure regulator may be a little = inconstant. Anytime I make rpm changes with the prop controller I'm prepared to make = a small mixture adjustment. Particularly at MP greater than 32". =  

 

I've used the climb and descent tuning methods with mixed results. 

 

What airport are you at?  I'm in Dallas regularity and have been landing at Mesquite. 

 

Bobby

 



Sent from my iPad


On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Thanks, = Bobby.

 

A while back I set my autopilot for = a 300 fpm climb and then set the EC-2 in mode 9 and let it adjust the MAP = table as I climbed.  Each time it changed to a new address, it initially = dropped off in a deep hole and I had to use the mixture knob to keep the engine = going until the mode 9 got it close, then I set the mixture in the center as well as = the program knob until it hit the next address as I climbed.  I did = this up to 10K feet.

You might get results with this = method to eliminate the need to adjust the = mixture??

 

I will check your suggestions when = I go back out.

 

Bill =

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Friday, January 15, = 2016 2:46 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be happening?

 

Hello Bill 

 

Here's a few more things to check. =  

MP pressure lines to the EC2 and fuel pressure regulator. My = EFIS shares a line with the B Controller sensor and I recently noted a large = delta between the EFIS and EM3 (dedicated A controller line)  MP during = climb out. The pressure evened out but I think I was close to pattern altitude = when it did. Large mixture changes were needed during the event. Its possible = a line was pinched and I now have bulkhead fittings through the firewall and = will replace the tubing possibly tomorrow. Before the bulkhead fitting the = lines shared a firewall pass through with lots of = wires. 

 

Fuel pressure regulator.  Dragging = diaphragm?

 

Air temp sensor. B = Controller?

 

Damaged fuel mixture knob? = Wiring? 

 

I always need to make a small mixture adjustment during climb. =  I think it may the load changes with the electric = prop. 

 

Bobby 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Sent from my iPad

 

On Jan 15, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Steve,

 

I suppose that would be the = secondary injector disable switch.  That would explain the engine going lean, = I am not certain how the engine going rich would play in unless the problem = somehow involved the cold start function.  That could be somehow possible = since the same switch would be involved in both functions.   I will = check that circuit out and see if I can find a bad connection or = switch.

 

Bill =

 

From: = Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Friday, January 15, = 2016 10:52 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = What do you think may be = happening?

 

Bill,

It may be that you have an intermittent problem with the power = supply to the secondary fuel injectors.  Dennis had a similar problem that = may have been traced to a switch.  The system would operate normally at = MAP less than the staging point but have problems when all four injectors were = required.

Steve Boese

 

On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am a little confused as to what = may be going on with my EC-2.  =

I recently had an incident where = the engine went very lean just after take off and during the climb out to = pattern altitude.  I didn’t do any troubleshooting.  I just set = the mixture control to as rich as possible and continued in the pattern to = land.

=

On the ground, I could find no = problems with fuel, either tank, fuel pressure, = etc.

 

I decided to follow Steve’s = procedure below.  After doing this procedure, the engine ran smoothly from = idle to 22 inches on the ground.  I put it into mode 9 and let it change a = few spots on the MAP.  Almost all the MAP table was still set at = zero.

=

 

I taxied out to fly and during the = takeoff run, at about 29 inches and 7100 rpm, the engine went very rich, = 10:1.   I adjusted the mixture knob during the takeoff run to about 9-9:30 o’clock.  At about 200 feet of altitude, the mixture suddenly = went to about 17:1.  I moved the mixture knob to about 3 o’clock, but = it really didn’t help much.  When I got to pattern altitude and pulled = the power back, the mixture seemed to stabilize at around 13 or so.  I made = the landing and back to the hangar with no = incident.=

 

On the ground again I checked the = MAP and the table was at zero at all the places the engine had been operating = during the climb = out.

 

Any = ideas?

 

Bill =

 

From: = Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Thursday, January = 07, 2016 1:10 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Tuning

 

Steve,

 

The = following assumes that there are no problems with CAS or = ignition:

After = setting the controller back to all default program values and depending on the = update version of your controller, the following excerpt from archive message = #54156 of Mar 6, 2011 may be of = interest:

"

The = tuning procedure then becomes the same whether the primary and secondary = injector flow rates are different or identical:

a.  Set the staging threshold at a MAP corresponding to the high = end of the primary injector flow limit using mode 7.  (For 40 lb = injectors, about 20" MAP works well.)

b.  Adjust Mode 3 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP = just below the staging threshold MAP.

c.  Adjust mode 6 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP = just above the staging threshold MAP.

d.  Adjust mode 2 for best operation at minimum idle MAP.

e.  Adjust the mixture table throughout the useable MAP range using = mode 1 or 9 to keep the O2 sensor reading mid scale.  (To be honest, I = skip step "e" and simply use the manual mixture control to adjust the = mixture in cruise.)
"

Steve Boese
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2

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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7303 / Virus Database: 4489/11407 - Release Date: = 01/15/16

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7303 / Virus Database: 4489/11407 - Release Date: = 01/15/16

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7303 / Virus Database: 4489/11415 - Release Date: = 01/16/16

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