X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "James R. Osborn" Received: from mail-pf0-f176.google.com ([209.85.192.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.8) with ESMTPS id 8329425 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:37:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.176; envelope-from=rxcited@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf0-f176.google.com with SMTP id e65so121874563pfe.0 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:37:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to; bh=cf9oH0kFZU5BajhxXKeXpwxlRitMjzQgNiwHpuyVKjw=; b=a9T22kHe4CzQFwEH/QWQFZmxX4RBhwgk/XwydkO57zTc6BOgVY8fMS5JVqHvO4hT7V U9DeQt0aHrFlKg1ziA5a93wwOYeOemwmSbOhT4YT7JCds1E10SofCf+WOiqBujQoWpi1 jZ5N9Z8C9HCXiWhAUd1P1DFX7X+14UcnlSVvE66UPFlXEd+E5IZ61L2f+WXKiXFB8CxP PSNXRDu8Jz3hdtWi2JZo2AUqegfWe5/71fgf9bzlXg4leH5dN72d/bTK5RLNcX4ukZby 7p+ZQ2ezTuuUCnr5e2zQOk8e3JepwfsrCehdmkN5QLnBNHqd2jIDvIdmyHQsaBIfx9oz 4xMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-type:message-id:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=cf9oH0kFZU5BajhxXKeXpwxlRitMjzQgNiwHpuyVKjw=; b=QvzTy8W89J86ryJd15KVUTISKl63XVaKBllOJQoltqhPnHb5a/GJPF5/MWAqBn2BR3 1XIsSSf/yM060RnNzcX2DX7xuqWuCkhB9mPhf/bKipdQqAGg5TGueo4ImgGcPPBEgiVg 76GdKefIWFTXwdm+j5vf5Rjp1hvLfrz/dhgDlEbqBLbTTjq0s9Obioyq8KocmBnXC+yX bit8tyc/E5+j8smHAWt+iWV2m7A9ij4vMCPlbU75OxsNLqJCq4i9lInzFqKduLAXcjQ+ 4O/Tmgd618fYaHrqG2qGtMvyvoFtg5dHGcvjCRMwkbxRy3PS4BIFrhNLGlQJkvE+ez41 tU8w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnwWSnbAvbZzEHX9RoZLidZEdXRZRftcWzmZg/lZy7CNPVjCcZuqigc+E7ZFdKi9F7DT9nzg2+6rWhOkHTt9s1FORpTjA== X-Received: by 10.98.80.149 with SMTP id g21mr16917537pfj.127.1452883056063; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:37:36 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov (jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov. [128.3.128.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yl1sm16981654pac.35.2016.01.15.10.37.34 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:37:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0747DA5E-CFF8-4650-8F8C-7CA108919BA8" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] What do you think may be happening? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:37:40 -0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) --Apple-Mail=_0747DA5E-CFF8-4650-8F8C-7CA108919BA8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You did make some adjustments, so maybe that good explain the rich = excursions in the latter testing. One idea - I am no expert so they should weigh in if this is a bad idea = - you could use the secondary injector disable which would run only on = the primaries and double the fuel. As I understand it, you would only = get about 80% throttle so maybe it would not be prudent to actually take = off in this configuration. But if your problems went away, that would = point to problems with the secondaries, either wiring, switches, power, = injectors themselves, or the disable wiring. =E2=80=94 James > On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: >=20 > Steve, > =20 > I suppose that would be the secondary injector disable switch. That = would explain the engine going lean, I am not certain how the engine = going rich would play in unless the problem somehow involved the cold = start function. That could be somehow possible since the same switch = would be involved in both functions. I will check that circuit out and = see if I can find a bad connection or switch. > =20 > Bill=20 > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 > Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:52 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you think may be happening? > =20 > Bill, > It may be that you have an intermittent problem with the power supply = to the secondary fuel injectors. Dennis had a similar problem that may = have been traced to a switch. The system would operate normally at MAP = less than the staging point but have problems when all four injectors = were required. >=20 > Steve Boese >=20 > On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Bill Bradburry = > = wrote: >=20 >> I am a little confused as to what may be going on with my EC-2. =20 >> I recently had an incident where the engine went very lean just after = take off and during the climb out to pattern altitude. I didn=E2=80=99t = do any troubleshooting. I just set the mixture control to as rich as = possible and continued in the pattern to land. >> On the ground, I could find no problems with fuel, either tank, fuel = pressure, etc. >> =20 >> I decided to follow Steve=E2=80=99s procedure below. After doing = this procedure, the engine ran smoothly from idle to 22 inches on the = ground. I put it into mode 9 and let it change a few spots on the MAP. = Almost all the MAP table was still set at zero. >> =20 >> I taxied out to fly and during the takeoff run, at about 29 inches = and 7100 rpm, the engine went very rich, 10:1. I adjusted the mixture = knob during the takeoff run to about 9-9:30 o=E2=80=99clock. At about = 200 feet of altitude, the mixture suddenly went to about 17:1. I moved = the mixture knob to about 3 o=E2=80=99clock, but it really didn=E2=80=99t = help much. When I got to pattern altitude and pulled the power back, = the mixture seemed to stabilize at around 13 or so. I made the landing = and back to the hangar with no incident. >> =20 >> On the ground again I checked the MAP and the table was at zero at = all the places the engine had been operating during the climb out. >> =20 >> Any ideas? >> =20 >> Bill=20 >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 1:10 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning >> =20 >> Steve, >> =20 >> The following assumes that there are no problems with CAS or = ignition: >> After setting the controller back to all default program values and = depending on the update version of your controller, the following = excerpt from archive message #54156 of Mar 6, 2011 may be of interest: >> " >> The tuning procedure then becomes the same whether the primary and = secondary injector flow rates are different or identical: >>=20 >> a. Set the staging threshold at a MAP corresponding to the high end = of the primary injector flow limit using mode 7. (For 40 lb injectors, = about 20" MAP works well.) >>=20 >> b. Adjust Mode 3 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP just = below the staging threshold MAP. >>=20 >> c. Adjust mode 6 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading at a MAP just = above the staging threshold MAP. >>=20 >> d. Adjust mode 2 for best operation at minimum idle MAP. >>=20 >> e. Adjust the mixture table throughout the useable MAP range using = mode 1 or 9 to keep the O2 sensor reading mid scale. (To be honest, I = skip step "e" and simply use the manual mixture control to adjust the = mixture in cruise.) >> " >>=20 >> Steve Boese >> RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 >=20 > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7303 / Virus Database: 4489/11407 - Release Date: = 01/15/16 --Apple-Mail=_0747DA5E-CFF8-4650-8F8C-7CA108919BA8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
You did make = some adjustments, so maybe that good explain the rich excursions in the = latter testing.

One = idea - I am no expert so they should weigh in if this is a bad idea - = you could use the secondary injector disable which would run only on the = primaries and double the fuel.  As I understand it, you would only = get about 80% throttle so maybe it would not be prudent to actually take = off in this configuration.  But if your problems went away, that = would point to problems with the secondaries, either wiring, switches, = power, injectors themselves, or the disable wiring.

=E2=80=94 James


On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Steve,
 
I suppose that would be the secondary injector disable = switch.  That would explain the engine going lean, I am not certain = how the engine going rich would play in unless the problem somehow = involved the cold start function.  That could be somehow possible = since the same switch would be involved in both functions.   I = will check that circuit out and see if I can find a bad connection or = switch.
 
Bill 
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 = 10:52 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What do you = think may be happening?
 
Bill,
It = may be that you have an intermittent problem with the power supply to = the secondary fuel injectors.  Dennis had a similar problem that = may have been traced to a switch.  The system would operate = normally at MAP less than the staging point but have problems when all = four injectors were required.

Steve = Boese


On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I = am a little confused as to what may be going on with my EC-2.  
I recently had an incident where the engine went very = lean just after take off and during the climb out to pattern = altitude.  I didn=E2=80=99t do any troubleshooting.  I just = set the mixture control to as rich as possible and continued in the = pattern to land.
On = the ground, I could find no problems with fuel, either tank, fuel = pressure, etc.
 
I = decided to follow Steve=E2=80=99s procedure below.  After doing = this procedure, the engine ran smoothly from idle to 22 inches on the = ground.  I put it into mode 9 and let it change a few spots on the = MAP.  Almost all the MAP table was still set at zero.
 
I = taxied out to fly and during the takeoff run, at about 29 inches and = 7100 rpm, the engine went very rich, 10:1.   I adjusted the = mixture knob during the takeoff run to about 9-9:30 o=E2=80=99clock. = At about 200 feet of altitude, the mixture suddenly went to about = 17:1.  I moved the mixture knob to about 3 o=E2=80=99clock, but it = really didn=E2=80=99t help much.  When I got to pattern altitude = and pulled the power back, the mixture seemed to stabilize at around 13 = or so.  I made the landing and back to the hangar with no = incident.
 
On = the ground again I checked the MAP and the table was at zero at all the = places the engine had been operating during the climb out.
 
Any= ideas?
 
Bill 
 
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 = 1:10 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Tuning
 
Steve,
 
The = following assumes that there are no problems with CAS or = ignition:
After = setting the controller back to all default program values and depending = on the update version of your controller, the following excerpt from = archive message #54156 of Mar 6, 2011 may be of = interest:
"
The = tuning procedure then becomes the same whether the primary and secondary = injector flow rates are different or identical:

a.  Set the staging threshold at a MAP corresponding to = the high end of the primary injector flow limit using mode 7.  (For = 40 lb injectors, about 20" MAP works well.)

b.  Adjust Mode 3 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading = at a MAP just below the staging threshold MAP.

c.  Adjust mode 6 to get a mid scale O2 sensor reading = at a MAP just above the staging threshold MAP.

d.  Adjust mode 2 for best operation at minimum idle = MAP.

e.  Adjust the mixture table = throughout the useable MAP range using mode 1 or 9 to keep the O2 sensor = reading mid scale.  (To be honest, I skip step "e" and simply use = the manual mixture control to adjust the mixture in cruise.)
"

Steve Boese
RV6A = 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2
No virus found in this message.
Checked = by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: = 2016.0.7303 / Virus Database: 4489/11407 - Release Date: = 01/15/16

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