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[128.3.128.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p5sm260326pdi.2.2015.05.21.17.33.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 21 May 2015 17:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3F26703B-6400-44B9-BDC0-E034DB17896E" Message-Id: <94BD3576-74FB-4393-A7DD-309E5D6EB09C@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Method of adding oil to fuel Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 17:33:56 -0700 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) --Apple-Mail=_3F26703B-6400-44B9-BDC0-E034DB17896E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 If you are really trying for convenience, how about a small electric = pump plumbed to squirt oil into the tank filler neck? You could use a = small R/C smoke oil pump and have a push button to operate it, placed = somewhere inconspicuous close to the filler neck. Calibrate it by = measuring the oil delivered per second so you would just hold the button = down X seconds per gallon of fuel. You would have to find a place to = store whatever quantity of oil you want to have on board, maybe a = gallon? http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=3DLXDND3&P=3DML = Not sure how this would like 2 stroke oil, or how reliable it would be = over time. Design the system so that if something goes amiss, you can = pull out your gallon of oil and use a measuring cup if need be. =E2=80=94 James > On May 21, 2015, at 3:20 PM, ARGOLDMAN = wrote: >=20 > Bill, > =20 > Great idea, kind of reminds me of fueling RC planes. While I was = writing the last post the picture of an oil can with flexible nozzle = came to mind. > =20 > I'm sure that our device already exists we just have to find it (and = hope it fits in our aircraft.) > =20 > The below link is to a device along the lines that I am talking. It is = only 16 oz and is glass, however if they make it for salad oil there is = probably something available for us > =20 > = http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-17OZ-500ML-Press-Measure-Oil-= Vinegar-Dispenser-Bottle-with-Pump/474082623.html = > =20 > Perhaps something as simple as pumps used to dispense epoxy (west = marine) or even some polyethylene 5 to 10 oz screw cap bottles that we = can refill from a bulk source. It is acceptable to overoil if = necessary-- underoiling isn't too good!!=20 > =20 > Rich > =20 > In a message dated 5/21/2015 4:15:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > Rich, >=20 > =20 >=20 > The syringe is along the kind of ideas I was thinking of. I was = thinking of perhaps a pump that put out a measured dose that you could = insert into your oil container with a hose on the outlet so that you = could pump in however many squirts you needed. You should be able to = pump out of the gallon container you buy the oil in. You could then cap = the hose so that it didn=E2=80=99t leak. I also like that 12 pack = cooler that Bobby mentioned as well to help keep this messy stuff = organized. >=20 > =20 >=20 > More ideas?? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Bill >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20= > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:57 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of adding oil to fuel >=20 > =20 >=20 > Mark, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Yes and no with the OMP. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Forgetting about the small risk of failure of the OMP (which does = happen), in the Renesis engines manufactured until, I believe 2004, the = ports squirting the oil into the trochoids were insufficient (there were = only 2 per rotor) and they had multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, = I am told, built a factory just to rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to = the owners. If you have a pre-2005 renesis with 2 injection ports per = rotor don't even consider the OMP. If you want to consider the OMP, that = is a decision with pros and cons on each side which I will not go into. >=20 > =20 >=20 > One way of mixing the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly = syringe or syringes . Fill it (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding = fuel, inject the appropriate amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to = do this with a product called Prist for Turbine engines. (although they = used aerosol cans with a tube which attached to the filler nozzle.) >=20 > =20 >=20 > If you know that you are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you = start fueling, squirt the stuff in in the beginning when you start to = add your fuel. Since the 2 stroke is or supposed to be miscible with = fuel, adding it this way especially with the initial agitation of = filling, despite the baffles, it should evenly distribute. If you want, = you can rock the wings. Remember, the baffles are not continuous and = have relief ports at the bottom of each. >=20 > =20 >=20 > One question that I have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is = is there a difference between the brands on their misciblity? >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Rich >=20 > =20 >=20 > In a message dated 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >=20 > Bill, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I used to pre-mix my oil & gas back when I was running auto gas = (non-ethanol), pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station. I = would pour the required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, = then add fuel. By the time I was back at the airport it was well mixed. = After they started blending all mogas with ethanol, I was forced to go = to 100LL as my wing's adhesives are incompatible with alcohol. My wings = have a series of baffles, so adequate mixing became a problem. So, I = switched to the oil metering pump (OMP), using Richard Sohn's OMP = adapter and drawing from an auxiliary tank mounted on the firewall. = Now, I just have to remember to keep the oil tank full. I often add a = small amount of 2-stroke when filling the tanks, but that is probably = overkill.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > It is my belief that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to = be, directly on the apex seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only = to be burned up and blown out the exhaust, most of it never reaching the = apex seals. (Probably a topic for future discussion.) Anyway, I'm = happy with the OMP approach. It is a very simple pump and has proven = effective in millions of RX-7's and RX-8's. The one modification I made = was to fabricate steel oil lines to replace the plastic lines.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Mark S. >=20 > Lancair ES - 20B - pport=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburry = > = wrote: >=20 > I decided to add oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was = building. That was not a problem for a long time because I was buying = fuel in a couple of 55 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer. I would = add the oil to the drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas = station and then just fill the drums. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The first time that I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to = be a PITA! The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was = stringing out all over me and the wing. Quite a mess! >=20 > =20 >=20 > This makes me start to think of how can I measure and add this oil in = a neat clean and easy way. Now I know I am not the first guy to try and = gas up on a windy day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a = cute way? >=20 > =20 >=20 > I discovered a long time ago that the best inventions I can come up = with come off this list. How do you guys do this? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Bill >=20 > =20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_3F26703B-6400-44B9-BDC0-E034DB17896E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 If you are really trying for convenience, how about a small = electric pump plumbed to squirt oil into the tank filler neck?  You = could use a small R/C smoke oil pump and have a push button to operate = it, placed somewhere inconspicuous close to the filler neck. =  Calibrate it by measuring the oil delivered per second so you = would just hold the button down X seconds per gallon of fuel.  You = would have to find a place to store whatever quantity of oil you want to = have on board, maybe a gallon?

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=3DLXDND3&a= mp;P=3DML

Not sure how this would like 2 stroke oil, or how reliable it = would be over time.  Design the system so that if something goes = amiss, you can pull out your gallon of oil and use a measuring cup if = need be.

=E2=80=94= James

On May 21, 2015, at 3:20 PM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Bill,
 
Great idea, kind of reminds me of fueling RC = planes.  While I was=20 writing the last post the picture of an oil can with flexible nozzle = came to=20 mind.
 
I'm sure that our device already exists we just have to = find it (and hope=20 it fits in our aircraft.)
 
The below link is to a device along the lines that I am = talking. It is only=20 16 oz and is glass, however if they make it for salad oil there is = probably=20 something available for us
 
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-17OZ-500ML-Press-M= easure-Oil-Vinegar-Dispenser-Bottle-with-Pump/474082623.html
 
Perhaps something as simple as pumps used to dispense = epoxy (west marine)=20 or even some polyethylene 5 to 10 oz screw cap bottles that we can = refill from a=20 bulk source. It is acceptable to overoil if necessary-- underoiling = isn't too=20 good!! 
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 5/21/2015 4:15:33 P.M. Central = Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Rich,

 

The = syringe is along=20 the kind of ideas I was thinking of.  I was thinking of perhaps a = pump=20 that put out a measured dose that you could insert into your oil = container=20 with a hose on the outlet so that you could pump in however many = squirts you=20 needed.  You should be able to pump out of the gallon container = you buy=20 the oil in.  You could then cap the hose so that it didn=E2=80=99t = leak.  I=20 also like that 12 pack cooler that Bobby mentioned as well to help = keep this=20 messy stuff organized.

 

More=20 ideas??

 

Bill=20

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: = Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:57=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Method of adding=20 oil to fuel

 

Mark,

 

Yes and no with the=20 OMP.

 

Forgetting about the=20 small risk of failure of the OMP (which does happen), in the Renesis = engines=20 manufactured until, I believe 2004, the ports squirting the oil into = the=20 trochoids were insufficient (there were only 2 per rotor) and they had=20= multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, I am told, built a factory = just to=20 rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to the owners. If you have a pre-2005 = renesis=20 with 2 injection ports per rotor don't even consider the OMP. If you = want to=20 consider the OMP, that is a decision with pros and cons on each side = which I=20 will not go into.

 

One way of mixing=20 the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly syringe or syringes . = Fill it=20 (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding fuel, inject the = appropriate=20 amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to do this with a product = called=20 Prist for Turbine engines. (although they used aerosol cans with a = tube which=20 attached to the filler nozzle.)

 

If you know that you=20 are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you start fueling, squirt = the stuff=20 in in the beginning when you start to add your fuel. Since the 2 = stroke is or=20 supposed to be miscible with fuel, adding it this way especially = with the=20 initial agitation of filling, despite the baffles, it should = evenly=20 distribute. If you want, you can rock the wings. Remember, the baffles = are not=20 continuous and have relief ports at the bottom of=20 each.

 

One question that I=20 have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is is there a = difference=20 between the brands on their misciblity?

 

 

Rich

 

In a message dated=20 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net=20 writes:

Bill,=20

 

I used to pre-mix=20 my oil & gas back when I was running auto gas = (non-ethanol),=20 pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station. I would = pour the=20 required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, then add = fuel. =20 By the time I was back at the airport it was well=20 mixed. After they started blending all mogas with ethanol, I = was forced=20 to go to 100LL as my wing's adhesives are incompatible with = alcohol. =20 My wings have a series of baffles, so adequate mixing became a=20= problem.  So, I switched to the oil metering pump (OMP), using = Richard=20 Sohn's OMP adapter and drawing from an auxiliary tank mounted on the=20= firewall.  Now, I just have to remember to keep the oil tank=20 full.  I often add a small amount of 2-stroke when filling the = tanks,=20 but that is probably overkill. 

 

It is my belief=20 that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to be, directly on = the apex=20 seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only to be burned up and = blown out=20 the exhaust, most of it never reaching the apex seals.  = (Probably a=20 topic for future discussion.)  Anyway, I'm happy with the OMP=20= approach.  It is a very simple pump and has proven effective in=20= millions of RX-7's and RX-8's.  The one modification I made was = to=20 fabricate steel oil lines to replace the plastic lines. =20=

 

Mark=20 S.

Lancair ES - 20B=20 - pport 

 

On Wed, May 20,=20 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

I decided to add=20 oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was building.  = That was=20 not a problem for a long time because I was buying fuel in a couple = of 55=20 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer.  I would add the oil = to the=20 drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas station and then just = fill=20 the drums.

 

The first time that=20 I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to be a = PITA!  =20 The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was stringing out = all over=20 me and the wing.  Quite a mess!

 

This makes me start=20 to think of how can I measure and add this oil in a neat clean and = easy=20 way.  Now I know I am not the first guy to try and gas up on a = windy=20 day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a cute=20 way?

 

I discovered a long=20 time ago that the best inventions I can come up with come off this=20= list.  How do you guys do this?

 

Bill= =20

 


= --Apple-Mail=_3F26703B-6400-44B9-BDC0-E034DB17896E--