X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m3.mx.aol.com ([64.12.183.210] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.2) with ESMTPS id 7705923 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 21 May 2015 18:21:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.183.210; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-aal02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aal02.mx.aol.com [172.27.20.208]) by omr-m3.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 11B0238000042 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 18:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-aba02a.mail.aol.com (core-aba02.mail.aol.com [172.27.22.2]) by mtaomg-aal02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 9617338000081 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 18:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <116dbf.70408c3b.428fb427@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 18:20:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of adding oil to fuel To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_116dbf.70408c3b.428fb427_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 4049 X-Originating-IP: [50.151.84.101] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1432246824; bh=WNfSAWVh8tyxVtnbHYnT/BkZE/HeUSy01xJyeusF7EA=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RdbWC1Td+/FE2bLmTqBj2/xNCtn/SLvBSNIKUncvsqIuW+4hN8Nkqe1RQBg9PbPs9 pTCyWhtDsAXPMGv2G4DsBJqJ/wugWG7LMd9tCqyFKO3PHU1wT50bwZnIpj71pYkB6V N/IbaAoXRqevq2sqa5hw065nJ5d/hfBwalDe9jNQ= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b14d0555e5a2709e8 --part1_116dbf.70408c3b.428fb427_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Bill, =20 Great idea, kind of reminds me of fueling RC planes. While I was writing= =20 the last post the picture of an oil can with flexible nozzle came to mind= . =20 I'm sure that our device already exists we just have to find it (and hope= =20 it fits in our aircraft.) =20 The below link is to a device along the lines that I am talking. It is onl= y=20 16 oz and is glass, however if they make it for salad oil there is=20 probably something available for us =20 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-17OZ-500ML-Pres s-Measure-Oil-Vinegar-Dispenser-Bottle-with-Pump/474082623.html =20 Perhaps something as simple as pumps used to dispense epoxy (west marine)= =20 or even some polyethylene 5 to 10 oz screw cap bottles that we can refill= =20 from a bulk source. It is acceptable to overoil if necessary-- underoilin= g=20 isn't too good!!=20 =20 Rich =20 =20 In a message dated 5/21/2015 4:15:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =20 Rich,=20 The syringe is along the kind of ideas I was thinking of. I was thinking= =20 of perhaps a pump that put out a measured dose that you could insert into= =20 your oil container with a hose on the outlet so that you could pump in=20 however many squirts you needed. You should be able to pump out of the= gallon=20 container you buy the oil in. You could then cap the hose so that it did= n=E2=80=99t=20 leak. I also like that 12 pack cooler that Bobby mentioned as well to=20 help keep this messy stuff organized.=20 More ideas??=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of adding oil to fuel =20 Mark, =20 =20 Yes and no with the OMP.=20 =20 =20 Forgetting about the small risk of failure of the OMP (which does happen)= ,=20 in the Renesis engines manufactured until, I believe 2004, the ports=20 squirting the oil into the trochoids were insufficient (there were only= 2 per=20 rotor) and they had multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, I am told,= =20 built a factory just to rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to the owners. If= you=20 have a pre-2005 renesis with 2 injection ports per rotor don't even consi= der=20 the OMP. If you want to consider the OMP, that is a decision with pros an= d=20 cons on each side which I will not go into. =20 =20 One way of mixing the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly syring= e=20 or syringes . Fill it (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding fuel,=20 inject the appropriate amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to do thi= s with=20 a product called Prist for Turbine engines. (although they used aerosol= =20 cans with a tube which attached to the filler nozzle.) =20 =20 If you know that you are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you start= =20 fueling, squirt the stuff in in the beginning when you start to add your= =20 fuel. Since the 2 stroke is or supposed to be miscible with fuel, adding= it=20 this way especially with the initial agitation of filling, despite the=20 baffles, it should evenly distribute. If you want, you can rock the wings= .=20 Remember, the baffles are not continuous and have relief ports at the bot= tom of =20 each. =20 =20 One question that I have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is is= =20 there a difference between the brands on their misciblity? =20 =20 =20 Rich =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =20 =20 Bill, =20 =20 =20 I used to pre-mix my oil & gas back when I was running auto gas=20 (non-ethanol), pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station. I= would pour=20 the required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, then add fuel.= =20 By the time I was back at the airport it was well mixed. After they start= ed=20 blending all mogas with ethanol, I was forced to go to 100LL as my wing's= =20 adhesives are incompatible with alcohol. My wings have a series of baffl= es,=20 so adequate mixing became a problem. So, I switched to the oil metering= =20 pump (OMP), using Richard Sohn's OMP adapter and drawing from an auxiliar= y=20 tank mounted on the firewall. Now, I just have to remember to keep the= oil=20 tank full. I often add a small amount of 2-stroke when filling the tanks= , =20 but that is probably overkill. =20 =20 =20 It is my belief that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to be,= =20 directly on the apex seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only to be= =20 burned up and blown out the exhaust, most of it never reaching the apex= seals.=20 (Probably a topic for future discussion.) Anyway, I'm happy with the OM= P=20 approach. It is a very simple pump and has proven effective in millions= =20 of RX-7's and RX-8's. The one modification I made was to fabricate steel= =20 oil lines to replace the plastic lines. =20 =20 =20 Mark S. =20 Lancair ES - 20B - pport =20 =20 =20 On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburry=20 <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wro= te:=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I decided to add oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was=20 building. That was not a problem for a long time because I was buying fu= el in a=20 couple of 55 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer. I would add the oi= l=20 to the drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas station and then=20 just fill the drums.=20 The first time that I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to be= =20 a PITA! The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was stringing= =20 out all over me and the wing. Quite a mess!=20 This makes me start to think of how can I measure and add this oil in a= =20 neat clean and easy way. Now I know I am not the first guy to try and ga= s up=20 on a windy day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a cute way?= =20 I discovered a long time ago that the best inventions I can come up with= =20 come off this list. How do you guys do this?=20 Bill =20 --part1_116dbf.70408c3b.428fb427_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Bill,
 
Great idea, kind of reminds me of fueling RC planes.  While I wa= s=20 writing the last post the picture of an oil can with flexible nozzle came= to=20 mind.
 
I'm sure that our device already exists we just have to find it (and= hope=20 it fits in our aircraft.)
 
The below link is to a device along the lines that I am talking. It= is only=20 16 oz and is glass, however if they make it for salad oil there is probabl= y=20 something available for us
 
http://www.alie= xpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-17OZ-500ML-Press-Measure-Oil-Vinegar-Dispens= er-Bottle-with-Pump/474082623.html
 
Perhaps something as simple as pumps used to dispense epoxy (west mar= ine)=20 or even some polyethylene 5 to 10 oz screw cap bottles that we can refill= from a=20 bulk source. It is acceptable to overoil if necessary-- underoiling isn't= too=20 good!! 
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 5/21/2015 4:15:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Rich,

 

The syringe= is along=20 the kind of ideas I was thinking of.  I was thinking of perhaps a= pump=20 that put out a measured dose that you could insert into your oil contain= er=20 with a hose on the outlet so that you could pump in however many squirts= you=20 needed.  You should be able to pump out of the gallon container you= buy=20 the oil in.  You could then cap the hose so that it didn=E2=80=99t= leak.  I=20 also like that 12 pack cooler that Bobby mentioned as well to help keep= this=20 messy stuff organized.

 

More=20 ideas??

 

Bill=20

 

From:<= /SPAN>=20 Rotary motors in aircraft= =20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:57= =20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Method= of adding=20 oil to fuel

 

Mark,

 <= /o:p>

Yes and no= with the=20 OMP.

 <= /o:p>

Forgetting= about the=20 small risk of failure of the OMP (which does happen), in the Renesis eng= ines=20 manufactured until, I believe 2004, the ports squirting the oil into the= =20 trochoids were insufficient (there were only 2 per rotor) and they had= =20 multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, I am told, built a factory jus= t to=20 rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to the owners. If you have a pre-2005 re= nesis=20 with 2 injection ports per rotor don't even consider the OMP. If you wan= t to=20 consider the OMP, that is a decision with pros and cons on each side whi= ch I=20 will not go into.

 <= /o:p>

One way of= mixing=20 the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly syringe or syringes .= Fill it=20 (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding fuel, inject the appropri= ate=20 amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to do this with a product calle= d=20 Prist for Turbine engines. (although they used aerosol cans with a tube= which=20 attached to the filler nozzle.)

 <= /o:p>

If you know= that you=20 are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you start fueling, squirt the= stuff=20 in in the beginning when you start to add your fuel. Since the 2 stroke= is or=20 supposed to be miscible with fuel, adding it this way especially wi= th the=20 initial agitation of filling, despite the baffles, it should evenly= =20 distribute. If you want, you can rock the wings. Remember, the baffles= are not=20 continuous and have relief ports at the bottom of=20 each.

 <= /o:p>

One question= that I=20 have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is is there a difference= =20 between the brands on their misciblity?

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Rich

 <= /o:p>

In a message= dated=20 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t=20 writes:

Bill,=20

 

I used to= pre-mix=20 my oil & gas back when I was running auto gas (non-ethanol),= =20 pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station. I would po= ur the=20 required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, then add fuel.&= nbsp;=20 By the time I was back at the airport it was well=20 mixed. After they started blending all mogas with ethanol, I was= forced=20 to go to 100LL as my wing's adhesives are incompatible with alcohol.&n= bsp;=20 My wings have a series of baffles, so adequate mixing became a=20 problem.  So, I switched to the oil metering pump (OMP), using Ri= chard=20 Sohn's OMP adapter and drawing from an auxiliary tank mounted on the= =20 firewall.  Now, I just have to remember to keep the oil tank=20 full.  I often add a small amount of 2-stroke when filling the ta= nks,=20 but that is probably overkill. 

 

It is my= belief=20 that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to be, directly on th= e apex=20 seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only to be burned up and blo= wn out=20 the exhaust, most of it never reaching the apex seals.  (Probably= a=20 topic for future discussion.)  Anyway, I'm happy with the OMP=20 approach.  It is a very simple pump and has proven effective in= =20 millions of RX-7's and RX-8's.  The one modification I made was= to=20 fabricate steel oil lines to replace the plastic lines. =20

 

Mark=20 S.

Lancair ES= - 20B=20 - pport 

 = ;

On Wed, Ma= y 20,=20 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

I decided= to add=20 oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was building.  Th= at was=20 not a problem for a long time because I was buying fuel in a couple of= 55=20 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer.  I would add the oil to= the=20 drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas station and then just= fill=20 the drums.

 

The first= time that=20 I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to be a PITA! &nb= sp;=20 The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was stringing out all= over=20 me and the wing.  Quite a mess!=

 

This makes= me start=20 to think of how can I measure and add this oil in a neat clean and eas= y=20 way.  Now I know I am not the first guy to try and gas up on a wi= ndy=20 day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a cute=20 way?

 

I discovere= d a long=20 time ago that the best inventions I can come up with come off this=20 list.  How do you guys do this?=

 

Bill=20

 = ;

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