X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.77] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.2) with ESMTPS id 7704753 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 21 May 2015 10:58:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.77; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com [172.26.252.15]) by omr-m03.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 65A2770037093 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 10:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-aba02a.mail.aol.com (core-aba02.mail.aol.com [172.27.22.2]) by mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 07F5A38000083 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 10:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:57:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Method of adding oil to fuel To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ac5f8.6ec18b61.428f4c58_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 4049 X-Originating-IP: [50.151.84.101] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1432220250; bh=Zz87VcxKSufbzxZC9Tp+6O5hUee9KESpvdg+wmfP7Lg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=l3ZyA1+r6u2UJruUfgDNmVbU4VjzBcfvtknJqf4MWLrHGpxs7G8jMzIbXW36B84J9 Yjsl5uOoZK5PSUjK9jLrZbC9XdcR9QagAfKtOchqG+S1FsMFSf/S4mcrFDqODogTVl 9vnLrIkdCwnCx1XduoeAv6M8+b/lxJfNBUWDpwhE= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afc0f555df2590ea6 --part1_ac5f8.6ec18b61.428f4c58_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Yes and no with the OMP. Forgetting about the small risk of failure of the OMP (which does happen), in the Renesis engines manufactured until, I believe 2004, the ports squirting the oil into the trochoids were insufficient (there were only 2 per rotor) and they had multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, I am told, built a factory just to rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to the owners. If you have a pre-2005 renesis with 2 injection ports per rotor don't even consider the OMP. If you want to consider the OMP, that is a decision with pros and cons on each side which I will not go into. One way of mixing the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly syringe or syringes . Fill it (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding fuel, inject the appropriate amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to do this with a product called Prist for Turbine engines. (although they used aerosol cans with a tube which attached to the filler nozzle.) If you know that you are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you start fueling, squirt the stuff in in the beginning when you start to add your fuel. Since the 2 stroke is or supposed to be miscible with fuel, adding it this way especially with the initial agitation of filling, despite the baffles, it should evenly distribute. If you want, you can rock the wings. Remember, the baffles are not continuous and have relief ports at the bottom of each. One question that I have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is is there a difference between the brands on their misciblity? Rich In a message dated 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Bill, I used to pre-mix my oil & gas back when I was running auto gas (non-ethanol), pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station. I would pour the required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, then add fuel. By the time I was back at the airport it was well mixed. After they started blending all mogas with ethanol, I was forced to go to 100LL as my wing's adhesives are incompatible with alcohol. My wings have a series of baffles, so adequate mixing became a problem. So, I switched to the oil metering pump (OMP), using Richard Sohn's OMP adapter and drawing from an auxiliary tank mounted on the firewall. Now, I just have to remember to keep the oil tank full. I often add a small amount of 2-stroke when filling the tanks, but that is probably overkill. It is my belief that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to be, directly on the apex seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only to be burned up and blown out the exhaust, most of it never reaching the apex seals. (Probably a topic for future discussion.) Anyway, I'm happy with the OMP approach. It is a very simple pump and has proven effective in millions of RX-7's and RX-8's. The one modification I made was to fabricate steel oil lines to replace the plastic lines. Mark S. Lancair ES - 20B - pport On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburry <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: I decided to add oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was building. That was not a problem for a long time because I was buying fuel in a couple of 55 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer. I would add the oil to the drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas station and then just fill the drums. The first time that I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to be a PITA! The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was stringing out all over me and the wing. Quite a mess! This makes me start to think of how can I measure and add this oil in a neat clean and easy way. Now I know I am not the first guy to try and gas up on a windy day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a cute way? I discovered a long time ago that the best inventions I can come up with come off this list. How do you guys do this? Bill --part1_ac5f8.6ec18b61.428f4c58_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
 
Yes and no with the OMP.
 
Forgetting about the small risk of failure of the OMP (which does hap= pen),=20 in the Renesis engines manufactured until, I believe 2004, the ports squir= ting=20 the oil into the trochoids were insufficient (there were only 2 per rotor)= and=20 they had multiple problems, so much so that Mazda, I am told, built a fact= ory=20 just to rebuild the Renesis' at no cost to the owners. If you have a pre-2= 005=20 renesis with 2 injection ports per rotor don't even consider the OMP. If= you=20 want to consider the OMP, that is a decision with pros and cons on each si= de=20 which I will not go into.
 
One way of mixing the fuel and oil is to get a large cappable poly sy= ringe=20 or syringes . Fill it (them) with 2 stroke oil and while adding fuel,= =20 inject the appropriate amount as the fuel is flowing. They used to do this= with=20 a product called Prist for Turbine engines. (although they used aerosol ca= ns=20 with a tube which attached to the filler nozzle.)
 
If you know that you are going to put 10 gal in your tank, when you= start=20 fueling, squirt the stuff in in the beginning when you start to add your= fuel.=20 Since the 2 stroke is or supposed to be miscible with fuel, adding it= this=20 way especially with the initial agitation of filling, despite the baf= fles,=20 it should evenly distribute. If you want, you can rock the wings. Remember= , the=20 baffles are not continuous and have relief ports at the bottom of each.
 
One question that I have about any of the 2 stroke oil bulk adding is= is=20 there a difference between the brands on their misciblity?
 
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 5/21/2015 9:17:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Bill,
 
I used to pre-mix my oil & gas back when I was running aut= o gas=20 (non-ethanol), pumping into a fuel trailer at the nearby gas station.&nb= sp;I=20 would pour the required amount of 2-stroke oil into the trailer tank, th= en add=20 fuel.  By the time I was back at the airport it was well= =20 mixed. After they started blending all mogas with ethanol, I was fo= rced=20 to go to 100LL as my wing's adhesives are incompatible with alcohol.&nbs= p; My=20 wings have a series of baffles, so adequate mixing became a=20 problem.  So, I switched to the oil metering pump (OMP), using Rich= ard=20 Sohn's OMP adapter and drawing from an auxiliary tank mounted on the=20 firewall.  Now, I just have to remember to keep the oil tank full.&= nbsp;=20 I often add a small amount of 2-stroke when filling the tanks, but that= is=20 probably overkill. 
 
It is my belief that the OMP puts the oil exactly where it needs to= be,=20 directly on the apex seals rather than mixing in with the fuel only to= be=20 burned up and blown out the exhaust, most of it never reaching the apex= =20 seals.  (Probably a topic for future discussion.)  Anyway, I'm= happy=20 with the OMP approach.  It is a very simple pump and has proven eff= ective=20 in millions of RX-7's and RX-8's.  The one modification I made was= to=20 fabricate steel oil lines to replace the plastic lines. 
 
Mark S.
Lancair ES - 20B - pport 

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Bill Bradburr= y <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I decided= to add=20 oil to the fuel as I do the fill up back when I was building.  Th= at was=20 not a problem for a long time because I was buying fuel in a couple of= 55=20 gal drums and hauling them on a trailer.  I would add the oil to= the=20 drum before I left the hangar to go to the gas station and then just= fill=20 the drums.

<= /U> 

The first= time that=20 I tried to do this at an airport, it turned out to be a PITA! &nb= sp;=20 The wind was blowing and it was cold and the oil was stringing out all= over=20 me and the wing.  Quite a mess!

<= /U> 

This makes= me start=20 to think of how can I measure and add this oil in a neat clean and eas= y=20 way.  Now I know I am not the first guy to try and gas up on a wi= ndy=20 day so has anybody figured out how to do this in a cute=20 way?

<= /U> 

I discovere= d a long=20 time ago that the best inventions I can come up with come off this=20 list.  How do you guys do this?

<= /U> 

Bill=20

=

<= /DIV> --part1_ac5f8.6ec18b61.428f4c58_boundary--