X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Mark Steitle" Received: from mail-oa0-f46.google.com ([209.85.219.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 7081961 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 21:40:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.219.46; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-oa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id m1so2449522oag.19 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:40:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:references:from:content-type:in-reply-to:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=ozOgXnT1ndwJ3C5J2Wy39QZmzzAFEJhrYSpWtt12sws=; b=iSWvcxyEJ9GEAu5mhASE6vJPvf9NVQNOo43DqPlZiuQFN61Kwpiu5WKa1ptVwxoQR9 zY7aXsenLspMMJiRMljFuNl0newTkhSR+mSOyfXYuOeJO7pNl58OCK2p+f1FZinN8jrq KIDY6jLDa80EndlIBWogg/GXtf9JDNK946+fiQ3NMJ3fWqUzevk74P87NebHUYO7gl0t HwO5i3eDro7TRX8lLxt7XBPUC2h5N7CIDT0cXxDNdMkLr6EP/vOiyp2l49JTnGx5pNr+ Qt6b+Iz+CjkheWlAH76y3N9FcXBO0sesVLdVgUM5MLhL9CtFhAYql5x98mpXxP9X8upp OIGQ== X-Received: by 10.182.47.195 with SMTP id f3mr19736936obn.61.1407375601413; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.102] (104-7-221-147.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net. [104.7.221.147]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id wa9sm10730732oeb.6.2014.08.06.18.40.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Trip report References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-90C6C23E-14C1-4AB3-B776-5FBE822A8D04 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11D257) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:40:02 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-90C6C23E-14C1-4AB3-B776-5FBE822A8D04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I'll see 7000 - 7200 rpm on initial takeoff roll. It settles in around 6800= and I keep it there until around 500' agl, then dial it back using prop to c= ontrol engine rpm. I'm reluctant to push it due to gearbox limitations. Al= so, my intake is optimized for lower rpm range. =20 If I mess up and set the prop incorrectly for takeoff, I'll quickly bump up a= gainst the rev limiter. So, I know it will do it, just prefer to maximize l= ongevity of the hardware by running it more conservatively. Mark Sent from my iPad > On Aug 6, 2014, at 7:59 PM, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: >=20 > Nasty! Nasty! Nasty! :>) > =20 > I haven=E2=80=99t heard from Bobby in a while. He was considering swappin= g that SC for a turbo. Made his mind up yet? > =20 > How does that speed compare with your ES cousins? That fuel flow indicate= s about 200 hp. Have you tried it at a higher rpm? You could probably gene= rate 300 hp or so with that PP 20B at 7000 or so. That would give you a 27-= 28 gpm fuel flow and probably 220-225 speed? That should run like an ES wit= h an IO550 engine. > =20 > I left Sanford, Fl a while back with my son in his Turbo Saratoga followin= g me in a flight of two. He came over the radio saying =E2=80=9CSlow Down! I= am burning 30 gpm back here and you are still pulling away from me!=E2=80=9D= . :>) Best thing I had heard in a long time! :>) > =20 > I set my prop for a 7000 rpm take off, showing about 17-18 gpm, what do yo= u use? I wouldn=E2=80=99t take my fuel flow to the bank as I am not certain= of the calibration yet. > =20 > Bill > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 6:19 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Trip report > =20 > Bill, > =20 > I stated my gear ratio is 2.17:1 in error. I'm actually running the RD-2C= which is the 2.85:1 gear set. Typically, I run wot too, controlling engine= rpm with prop pitch. The exception is when flying formation with a certain= Renesis-powered RV-10. Then I have to throttle way back. I have lower gph= , but use more fuel because it takes twice as long to get to the destination= . > =20 > I did one speed run recently and saw 221mph at 6k rpm, 18.5 gph. Not some= thing I'm willing to do for any length of time, but sure was fun while it la= sted. > =20 > Mark >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Aug 6, 2014, at 5:08 PM, "Bill Bradburry" wrote: >> Mark, >> =20 >> I suppose that your prop speed limits your engine rpm to about 6100 max? = At 8000-10000 ft, can you go WOT without over speeding your prop? If you c= an and have, what TAS and fuel burn do you get? >> =20 >> When I moved my plane from Florida to Texas, I could only get to about 20= 00-3000 ft due to ceiling and headwinds. I have the Renesis with the 2.85 P= SRU and the MT electric 3 blade c/s prop. I was getting 161-163 knots(185-1= 88 mph) TAS with WOT, 6000 rpm, burning 9-10 gpm. I had the engine leaned t= o an A/F ratio of 16 using the wide band O2 sensor. I almost always fly WOT= in order to reduce pumping losses in the engine and I use the prop to contr= ol the engine rpm and therefore power. The only time I use the throttle to c= ontrol the engine power is as I approach the airport for landing. >> =20 >> Any others with performance numbers on their flying airplane? >> =20 >> Ed, we haven=E2=80=99t heard from you in a while, how are you doing? >> =20 >> Bill >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:58 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Trip report >> =20 >> Tracy, >> Thanks for posting your numbers. I typically fly below 10,000, but at the= same rpm, higher MAP. Typical cruise is 195-200 mph, burning around 11.2-11= .5 gph. Maybe I should slow down, or fly higher. >> For those unfamiliar with my setup, it is a Lancair ES, 20B-PP, 2.17:1 ps= ru, M/T electric 3-blade c/s prop. >> Mark S. >> =20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Tracy wrote= : >> Here's some trip data from a flight from Florida to Colorado in the 20B p= owered RV-8. It's the first long trip where I was able to fly at or near the= altitudes it was optimized for. It didn't do as well as I had hoped in term= s of fuel economy but the numbers were as good or slightly better than the t= ypical Lycoming powered RV numbers I hear. It is only slightly faster than m= y Renesis powered RV-4 at cruise conditions and reasonable fuel flow. But wh= at I like about it is the effortlessness with which it does the job. There i= s always a handful of throttle left for reserve in any normal flight situati= on. >>=20 >> Full throttle is reserved for those few seconds between rudder effectiven= ess at 30mph and lift off speed at 60. As soon as the wheels break ground I t= ypically reduce manifold pressure to 24". Cruise climb is done at between 18= and 19" depending on takeoff weight at around 700 FPM. Cruise altitude was l= imited to 15,000 this trip by temperature. I wasn't thinking and wore only a= thin jacket and I don't have cabin heat. All three legs were flown at 14,50= 0 in a very unusual high pressure system the whole way with almost zero wind= . Here are the raw numbers: >>=20 >> Altitude 14,500 >> OAT 35 - 43F >> TAS 174 - 182 MPH * >> Fuel Flow 8 GPH >> Engine RPM 5250 - 5450 >> Manifold Pressure 14.3" >> % Power 30% (As calculated by EM3) >> EGT 1450F >> Water temp 145 - 150 >> Oil Temp 160 (Cowl flap would help temps and airspeed) >> Total flight hours on trip 9.2 >>=20 >> * Fuel flow was held constant, TAS varied with fuel batch. Low number was= with Florida gas with about 8% ethanol. Refueled at Charlie England's place= (Thanks for the hospitality and fuel service Charlie!). Not sure wether it h= ad ethanol or not but TAS was a few MPH better. After refueling at 47K in Ka= nsas with no ethanol mogas, the TAS reached the highest number. >>=20 >> Tracy >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html >> =20 --Apple-Mail-90C6C23E-14C1-4AB3-B776-5FBE822A8D04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
I'll see 7000 - 7200 r= pm on initial takeoff roll.  It settles in around 6800 and I keep it th= ere until around 500' agl, then dial it back using prop to control engine rp= m.  I'm reluctant to push it due to gearbox limitations.  Also, my= intake is optimized for lower rpm range.  

If= I mess up and set the prop incorrectly for takeoff, I'll quickly bump up ag= ainst the rev limiter.  So, I know it will do it, just prefer to maximi= ze longevity of the hardware by running it more conservatively.

Mark<= /div>

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 6, 2014, at 7:59 PM, "B= ill Bradburry" <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> wrote:

=

Nasty! Nasty! Nasty!   :>)=

 

I haven=E2=80=99t heard from Bobby in a= while.  He was considering swapping that SC for a turbo.  Made his= mind up yet?

 

How does that speed compare with your E= S cousins?  That fuel flow indicates about 200 hp.  Have you tried i= t at a higher rpm?  You could probably generate 300 hp or so with that PP= 20B at 7000 or so.  That would give you a 27-28 gpm fuel flow and proba= bly 220-225 speed?  That should run like an ES with an IO550 engine.

 

I left Sanford, Fl a while back with my son in h= is Turbo Saratoga following me in a flight of two.  He came over the radio= saying =E2=80=9CSlow Down! I am burning 30 gpm back here and you are still pulling away from me!=E2=80=9D .   :>)  Best thing I had h= eard in a long time!   :>)

 

I set my prop for a 7000 rpm take off, s= howing about 17-18 gpm, what do you use?  I wouldn=E2=80=99t take my fuel flow= to the bank as I am not certain of the calibration yet.

 

Bill

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2= 014 6:19 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Trip= report

 

Bill,

 

I stated my gear ratio is 2.17:1 in error.  I'm actually runnin= g the RD-2C which is the 2.85:1 gear set.  Typically, I run wot too, controlling engine rpm with prop pitch.  The exception is when flying formation with a certain Renesis-powered RV-10.  Then I have to throttl= e way back.  I have lower gph, but use more fuel because it takes twice a= s long to get to the destination.

 

I did one speed run recently and saw 221mph at 6k rpm, 18.5 gph.  Not something I'm willing to do for any length of time, but sure was f= un while it lasted.

 

Mark

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 6, 2014, at 5:08 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Mark,

 <= /o:p>

I suppose that your prop speed limits y= our engine rpm to about 6100 max?   At 8000-10000 ft, can you go WOT without over speeding your prop?  If you can and have, what TAS and fue= l burn do you get?

 <= /o:p>

When I moved my plane from Florida to Texas, I could only get to about 2000-3000 ft due to ceiling and headwinds.  I= have the Renesis with the 2.85 PSRU and the MT electric 3 blade c/s prop.&nb= sp; I was getting 161-163 knots(185-188 mph) TAS with WOT, 6000 rpm, burning 9-1= 0 gpm.  I had the engine leaned to an A/F ratio of 16 using the wide band= O2 sensor.  I almost always fly WOT in order to reduce pumping losses in t= he engine and I use the prop to control the engine rpm and therefore power.&nbs= p; The only time I use the throttle to control the engine power is as I approac= h the airport for landing.

 <= /o:p>

Any others with performance numbers on their flying airplane?

 <= /o:p>

Ed, we haven=E2=80=99t heard from you i= n a while, how are you doing?

 <= /o:p>

Bill

 <= /o:p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft= [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2= 014 3:58 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Trip= report

 

Tracy,

Thanks for posting your numbers. I typically fly below 10,000, but a= t the same rpm, higher MAP. Typical cruise is 195-200 mph, burning around 11.2-11.5 gph. Maybe I should slow down, or fly higher.

For those unfamiliar with my setup, it is a Lancair ES, 20B-PP, 2.17= :1 psru, M/T electric 3-blade c/s prop. <= /p>

Mark S.

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Tracy <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Here's some trip data from a flight from Florida to Col= orado in the 20B powered RV-8. It's the first long trip where I was able to fly at= or near the altitudes it was optimized for. It didn't do as well as I had hoped= in terms of fuel economy but the numbers were as good or slightly better than t= he typical Lycoming powered RV numbers I hear. It is only slightly faster than m= y Renesis powered RV-4 at cruise conditions and reasonable fuel flow. But what= I like about it is the effortlessness with which it does the job. There is alw= ays a handful of throttle left for reserve in any normal flight situation.

Full throttle is reserved for those few seconds between rudder effectiveness= at 30mph and lift off speed at 60. As soon as the wheels break ground I typical= ly reduce manifold pressure to 24". Cruise climb is done at between 18 and 19" depending on takeoff weight at around 700 FPM. Cruise altitude was limited to 15,000 this trip by temperature. I wasn't thinking and wore only a= thin jacket and I don't have cabin heat. All three legs were flown at 14,500= in a very unusual high pressure system the whole way with almost zero wind. Her= e are the raw numbers:

Altitude 14,500
OAT 35 - 43F
TAS 174 - 182 MPH *
Fuel Flow 8 GPH
Engine RPM 5250 - 5450
Manifold Pressure 14.3"
% Power 30% (As calculated by EM3)
EGT 1450F
Water temp 145 - 150
Oil Temp 160 (Cowl flap would help temps and airspeed)
Total flight hours on trip 9.2

* Fuel flow was held constant, TAS varied with fuel batch. Low number was wi= th Florida= gas with about 8% ethanol. Refueled at Charlie England's place (Thanks for t= he hospitality and fuel service Charlie!). Not sure wether it had ethanol or no= t but TAS was a few MPH better. After refueling at 47K in Ka= nsas with no ethanol mogas, the TAS reached the highest number.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad
--
Homepage: http://www= .flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html

 
= --Apple-Mail-90C6C23E-14C1-4AB3-B776-5FBE822A8D04--