X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com ([209.85.212.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6983636 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 16:38:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.182; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-wi0-f182.google.com with SMTP id d1so3462029wiv.9 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 13:37:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=jwaIYBsojTZFlvnxOeI4UcHLeXnRlyN91z4ojB1e5g0=; b=O7oxgYb7N3D6PLVYCZgRc7IVtv70vcllGG8xAGZqZ1Iwk5Y8wLQ8kae42ohukTE6lQ IdZoCSZgz33X42DDYdJpvq+bL++6e7La0R8iDF8LrOL/6oi/RvrZZOCpn03yBgOgR14V tkCII53xI4CF/ldwUVfYIMBu95aV7wXOHV5r1trABQt2dgOIoMTkFfwQ6WF3J5b7gBEw opQye7V/JbBC4GfFvzLg3UwltnB7vY8GdhjOYb+8SnUieTODYTkltNicItZgF/o8dHQR mrjmceX12n4fRVWM87Jvh8kkQmP5Z1V3g5BDTjB+wYbLUpcCe607PaJeM2jvPtDvL5WJ BMFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.105.68 with SMTP id gk4mr1162412wib.24.1405629455746; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.176.199 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 15:37:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: power circuit design, was: actual current use by a rotary? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04426a60654bbb04fe699ce5 --f46d04426a60654bbb04fe699ce5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Jeff & David, too. The idea of one wire to the engine, then splitting & fusing at the devices does sound interesting. I might be able to build that into the GM coil harness. On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:13 PM, hoursaway1 wrote: > Charlie, I divided the leading from trailing under the cowl near coils & > installed two 20A spade fuses in covered fuse holders, if a trailing coil > shorted internally it would cause fuse for both trailing to stop working = & > I fly on leading coils to landing. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary Lansing > Michigan. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Charlie England" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:14:43 PM > > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] power circuit design, was: actual current use by a > rotary? > > Well, time for some followup. > > My 1st draft for circuit protection looked a lot like what Steve describe= s > (thanks, Steve), with individual fuses for virtually everything, includin= g > an individual fuse for each injector and each ignition coil. After > ruminating over the actual loads for the injectors & coils, I'm having > second thoughts. The GM coil harness I have in hand has a single DC power > wire for all four coils that it feeds (obviously isn't a part intended fo= r > flight, but included in Tracy's installation manual). > > The obvious concern is whether an individual coil or injector failure has > a statistically significant risk of taking out the power supply that's > fused for the total load. If there's no statistically significant danger, > weight & complexity could be reduced by feeding the coils and injectors a= s > groups. > > So, is there any consensus on how to handle injector & coil wiring? IIRC, > there have been some coil failures in flight; were those planes wired wit= h > a single fuse/breaker protecting all the coils, or with individual > fuses/breakers for each coil? What about the injectors? > > Any failure modes I'm missing? (other than a dead short on a supply wire, > of course) > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > > > On 7/1/2014 10:13 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > > Charlie > > Don=E2=80=99t know if it is wise but I have wired our electron traffic ma= nagement > as follows: > 1. A Main 32 way blade fuse block which is broken into two busses: A & B > being - > (The blade fuse block enables me to patch a current meter to any circuit > to see whats happening. Helpful when setting up or trouble shooting but > just nice and compact otherwise BUT I can=E2=80=99t just re-energise a ci= rcuit like > with circuit breakers, though blade size circuit brakes do exist nowadays= . > This main fuse block is mounted directly below main system switches so is > very accessible) > > A. FLIGHT CRITICAL (16 fuses) fed by a keyswitch: > EC2(A), EC2(B), EM3, O2, Prop Pitch, Engine Fuel Pres Pump, Engine Backup > Fuel Pres Pump, Fuel Transfer Pump, Backup Fuel Transfer Pump, Pri Fuel > Injectors, Sec Fuel Injectors, Leading Coils, Trailing Coils. > Notes 1. All engine fuel is fed from a header tank of 8 gallons with the > transfer pumps feeding the header from the main wing tank > Note 2. Separate power and return feeds to Pri and Sec Inj & Leading and > Trailing Coils, fuel pumps. > > B. AVIONONICS (16 fuses) feb by Avionoics master switch: > RHS Dynon EFIS, FHS Dynon EFIS, Flight Computer of my own, Com Radio, > Transponder, Autopilot servos, Position Lights, Strobe Lights etc, > > C. LANDING GEAR PUMP switched through seperate breaker (this mongrel draw= s > ~30 amps) > > Our airplane is plastic so return lines are very important. We have > separate main return paths - quiet and noisy. > > Steve > > > On 2 Jul 2014, at 10:08 am, Charlie England > wrote: > > Wow, Steve, that's great detailed info; I was just hoping to get the > total. I was expecting the injectors to draw more than the coils, but wit= h > all the coils together under 5 amps (and even better for the injectors), > then my wiring architecture can get a lot simpler. > > Many thanks, > > Charlie > > On 7/1/2014 7:19 PM, steve Izett wrote: > > Hi Charlie > > I think these are in the ball park but not measured under flying > conditions only idle. > > *ENGINE* > > *EC2 .3* > > *EM3 .5* > > *COILS (D585) 5* > > *INJECTORS (Renesis) 2* > > *FUEL PRESSURE PUMP x 1 8.4* > > *FUEL TRANSFER PUMP x 1 1.6* > > *O2 SENSOR 0.6 * > > *Total Engine 18.4* > Steve Izett > > On 2 Jul 2014, at 5:08 am, Charlie England > wrote: > > Has anyone with an ammeter installed measured their engine's actual > current draw (controller, injectors, plugs, fuel pump) with everything bu= t > the engine shut down, and the alternator offline? IIRC, Bernie Kerr once > did a battery duration test & discontinued after ~40 minutes, but I don't > recall seeing any actual current measurements. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > > > > --f46d04426a60654bbb04fe699ce5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to Jeff & David, too. The idea of one wire to t= he engine, then splitting & fusing at the devices does sound interestin= g. I might be able to build that into the GM coil harness.


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:13 PM, hoursaw= ay1 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Charlie,= I divided=C2=A0 the leading from trailing under the cowl near coils & = installed two 20A spade fuses in covered fuse holders, if a trailing coil s= horted internally it would cause fuse for both trailing to stop working &am= p; I fly on leading coils to landing.=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary= Lansing Michigan.

From: "Charlie England" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= b>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:14:43 PM

Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] power circuit design, was: actual current use by a rota= ry?

Well, time for some followup.

My 1st draf= t for circuit protection looked a lot like what Steve describes (thanks, St= eve), with individual fuses for virtually everything, including an individu= al fuse for each injector and each ignition coil. After ruminating over the= actual loads for the injectors & coils, I'm having second thoughts= . The GM coil harness I have in hand has a single DC power wire for all fou= r coils that it feeds (obviously isn't a part intended for flight, but = included in Tracy's installation manual).

The obvious concern is whether an individual coil or injector failure h= as a statistically significant risk of taking out the power supply that'= ;s fused for the total load. If there's no statistically significant da= nger, weight & complexity could be reduced by feeding the coils and inj= ectors as groups.

So, is there any consensus on how to handle injector & coil wiring?= IIRC, there have been some coil failures in flight; were those planes wire= d with a single fuse/breaker protecting all the coils, or with individual f= uses/breakers for each coil? What about the injectors?

Any failure modes I'm missing? (other than a dead short on a supply= wire, of course)

Thanks,

Charlie




On 7/1/2014 10:13 PM, Stephen Izett wrote:
Charlie=20

Don=E2=80=99t know if it is wise but I have wired our electron traffic= management as follows:
1. A Main 32 way blade fuse block which is broken into two busses: A &= amp; B being -
(The blade fuse block enables me to patch a current meter to any circu= it to see whats happening. Helpful when setting up or trouble shooting but = just nice and compact otherwise BUT I can=E2=80=99t just re-energise a circ= uit like with circuit breakers, though blade size circuit brakes do exist n= owadays. This main fuse block is mounted directly below main system switche= s so is very accessible)

A. FLIGHT CRITICAL (16 fuses)=C2=A0fed by a keyswitch:
EC2(A), EC2(B), EM3, O2, Prop Pitch, Engine Fuel Pres Pump, Engine Bac= kup Fuel Pres Pump, Fuel Transfer Pump, Backup Fuel Transfer Pump, Pri Fuel= Injectors, Sec Fuel Injectors, Leading Coils, Trailing Coils.=C2=A0
Notes 1. All engine fuel is fed from a header tank of 8 gallons with t= he transfer pumps feeding the header from the main wing tank
Note 2. Separate power and return feeds to Pri and Sec Inj & Leadi= ng and Trailing Coils, fuel pumps.

B. AVIONONICS (16 fuses) feb by Avionoics master switch:
RHS Dynon EFIS, FHS Dynon EFIS, Flight Computer of my own, Com Radio, = Transponder, Autopilot servos, Position Lights, Strobe Lights etc,

C. LANDING GEAR PUMP switched through seperate breaker (this mongrel d= raws ~30 amps)

Our airplane is plastic so return lines are very important. We have se= parate main return paths - quiet and noisy.

Steve

=C2=A0
On 2 Jul 2014, at 10:08 am, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt; wrote:

Wow, Steve, that's great detailed info; I was just hoping to get t= he total. I was expecting the injectors to draw more than the coils, but wi= th all the coils together under 5 amps (and even better for the injectors),= then my wiring architecture can get a lot simpler.

Many thanks,

Charlie

On 7/1/2014 7:19 PM, steve Izett wro= te:
Hi Charlie=20

I think these are in the ball park but not measured under flying condi= tions only idle.

ENGINE<= /span>

EC2=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 .3

EM3=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 .5

COILS (D585)= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5

INJECTORS (Re= nesis)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02

FUEL PRESSURE= PUMP=C2=A0 x 1 =C2=A08.4

FUEL TRANSFER= PUMP=C2=A0x 1 =C2=A01.6

O2 SENSOR=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.6=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Total Engine= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 18.4

Steve Izett

On 2 Jul 2014, at 5:08 am, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t; wrote:

Has anyone with an ammeter installed measured their engine= 's actual current draw (controller, injectors, plugs, fuel pump) with e= verything but the engine shut down, and the alternator offline? IIRC, Berni= e Kerr once did a battery duration test & discontinued after ~40 minute= s, but I don't recall seeing any actual current measurements.=20

Thanks,

Charlie=C2=A0




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