X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm16-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.109] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6365244 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Jul 2013 18:51:31 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.109; envelope-from=kjohnsondds@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.48] by nm16.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2013 22:50:55 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.248] by tm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2013 22:50:55 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1040.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2013 22:50:55 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 966009.43587.bm@omp1040.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 49477 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jul 2013 22:50:55 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1373323855; bh=X2GT8HhPmPVFMdc0n6hE8dcp62++Yl7K2NCdZ1d5efw=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; 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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 15:50:55 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QWxleCwKVHdvIHllYXJzIGFnbyBJIGRlY2lkZWQgb24gdGhlIGZpbHRlciByb3V0ZS7CoCBJIHdhcyBhYmxlIHRvIGdvIG9uIGxpbmUgYXQgd3d3LmtuZmlsdGVycy5jb20uwqAgSSB3YW50ZWQgdG8ga25vdyB3aGF0IGZpbHRlciB3YXMgcmVjb21tZW5kZWQgZm9yIG15IDEzQiwgd2l0aG91dCB0dXJiby7CoCBBbiBhZ2VudCByZXNwb25kZWQgd2l0aCB0aGUgbWFpbiBxdWVzdGlvbiBhcyB0byB3aGF0IHNpemUgZmxhbmdlIHRoZSBmaWx0ZXIgd291bGQgYmUgYXR0YWNoZWQuwqAgSSB3YXMgY3JlYXRpbmcgdGgBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.148.557 References: Message-ID: <1373323855.28363.YahooMailNeo@web125502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kenneth Johnson Reply-To: Kenneth Johnson Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ram Air and filters To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1546730761-42704479-1373323855=:28363" ---1546730761-42704479-1373323855=:28363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex,=0ATwo years ago I decided on the filter route.=A0 I was able to go on= line at www.knfilters.com.=A0 I wanted to know what filter was recommended= for my 13B, without turbo.=A0 An agent responded with the main question as= to what size flange the filter would be attached.=A0 I was creating the fl= ange and so the size was not an issue.=A0 We decided on a 3 inch flange and= the agent responded that the K&N filter for me was RU-5111.=A0=A0 The engi= ne you are using may require a different filter, but K&N can help you with = the right size.=0A=0ABecause of the space I have under the cowl, I have mou= nted my filter in the front opening of my fiberglass cowl.=A0 I created a d= ome shaped fiberglass fitting to go over the rubber end of the filter, but = repositioned the filter, so I could not use it.=A0 =0A=0AOne automotive adv= iser suggested that in a closed intake system, the oxygen sensors and compu= ter will make adjustments for any change in air pressure.=0AThat might be a= point of discussion regarding another flapper door.=A0 I will evaluated th= e proof of all this work when I first start my engine this fall. =0A=0AKen = Johnson, building a Zenith 801=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________= ______________=0A From: alex =0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASent: Monday, July 8, 2013 7:51= AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ram Air and filters=0A =0A=0A=0AThanks, it m= akes sense.=A0=0AI think i will go the automatic route and put a flapper do= or somewhere after the filter.=A0=0A=0AAlex M=0A=0AOn Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 4= :19 AM, wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Alex=0A>=A0=0A>Remembering bac= k, It seems as if the manifold pressure, at WOT seemed to be =0Aalways less= than ambient. Ram would increase that. Of course, a charger (turbo =0Aor s= uper) would increase the "ram" pressure even more. In Normally aspirated, = =0Athere are two types of alternate air. Manual controlled-- ie levers and = cables, =0Aetc, and automatic, which is exactly as you described.(and what = I will be =0Ausing)=0A>=A0=0A>The usual and critical part of the induction = system for blockage seems to =0Abe between the air inlet and the filter. Th= e "flapper: door generally has a =0Alight spring holding it closed. Remembe= r that the throttle plate is downstream =0Aof=A0 the filter. When the throt= tle plate is open, the=A0flowing =0Aair=A0between the plate and the trochoi= ds (of course that part of the =0Ainduction system downstream of the plate)= has the least resistance=A0 and =0Athus the MP is the highest-- going near= but not to ambient. As the plate is =0Aclosed, the little trochoids are su= cking against a partially closed orifice and =0Athe MP goes down. (of cours= e, the MP is measured between the plate and the =0Atrochoid intake port.=0A= >=A0=0A>The intake manifold pressure upstream of the throttle plate does no= t suffer =0Athe same fate, as a matter of fact, logic (who says that is rig= ht) says that the =0Apressure in that part of the manifold might even be in= versely affected.=0A>=A0=0A>Now if you have a=A0blockage before the alterna= te air flapper (assuming =0Aautomatic, the trochoids are sucking against th= at blockage making the pressure =0Ain the plenum between the blockage and t= he throttle plate decrease below =0Aambient, the door swings inward (high a= mbient vs low internal) and the engine =0Acan still breathe.=0A>=A0=0A>In t= he planes that I have had with the automatic alternate air, if memory =0Ase= rves me correctly(no guarantees) the flapper plate was part of the air clea= ner =0Aassembly.=0A>=A0=0A>Rich=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>In a message dated 7/6/201= 3 8:41:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alex.molteno@gmail.com writes:=0A>Ya = don't want to pay the fuel or maintenance on anything burning kerosene..I = take your point on less airflow. Can you tell me which pressure is greater= in the intake manifold, the influence of ram air pressure or intake vacuu= m pressure. Or does it vary from one to the other according to the cycle.= =A0 =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>For an "automatic" homegrown system on a 2 rotor would i= t work to have a spring loaded door opening inward into the intake manifol= d, fed by interior cowling air when the main system is blocked. It makes s= ense to me to have a door open for a negative pressure in the intake manif= old which i imagine would be the case of a blocked regular air intake and = ongoing intake vacuum pressure. Would a door like this be kept shut under = normal conditions of positive ram air, to preserve ram air which is what w= e want? =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Alex M=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 12:= 08 AM, wrote:=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>>Interesting concept, I ca= n see how that would eliminate a lot of FOD, however that is not how alter= nate air systems work for piston/rotor type engines.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>That is= almost the reverse. My guess is that the airflow in the PT6 is hughly gre= ater than in a 2 or 3 rotor engine and the kinetic energy of the FOD is si= gnificantly less. Additionally, the alternate air is to allow air to flow = if the induction system gets blocked. this valve works in the reverse. The= greater the pressure upstream the more it will open and in fact will vent= the presure (FOD/rain etc) overboard =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>If the intake becomes = blocked as in a filter or induction icing, the pressure is reduced tending= to seal the manifold.at this valve.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Would that we could all = fly Turboprops=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Rich=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>In a message dated 7/6/2013= 1:12:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alex.molteno@gmail.com writes:=0A>>>He= llo Lynn =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Are you referring to a similar system you see= on the Pratt and Whitney PT6 series engine, basically reversing the flow = of air 180 degrees before entering the compressor (throttle body for us i = guess). The inertia of the FOD or ice particles doesn't let them "make the= turn" into the throttle body and they exit the duct via a bypass flap. In= this case the opening of the flap creates the 180 degree turn and spillov= er air exit?=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Alex M=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>> ---1546730761-42704479-1373323855=:28363 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,
Two years ag= o I decided on the filter route.  I was able to go on line at www.knfi= lters.com.  I wanted to know what filter was recommended for my 13B, w= ithout turbo.  An agent responded with the main question as to what si= ze flange the filter would be attached.  I was creating the flange and= so the size was not an issue.  We decided on a 3 inch flange and the = agent responded that the K&N filter for me was RU-5111.   The= engine you are using may require a different filter, but K&N can help = you with the right size.

Because of the space I have under the cowl,= I have mounted my filter in the front opening of my fiberglass cowl. = I created a dome shaped fiberglass fitting to go over the rubber end of th= e filter, but repositioned the filter, so I could not use it. 

One automotive adviser suggested that in a closed intake system, t= he oxygen sensors and computer will make adjustments for any change in air = pressure.
That might be a point of discussion regarding another flapper = door.  I will evaluated the proof of all this work when I first start = my engine this fall.

Ken Johnson, building a Zenith 801


=



From: alex <alex.molteno@gmai= l.com>
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 7:51 AM
<= b>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ram Air a= nd filters

Thanks, it makes sense. 
I think i will go the aut= omatic route and put a flapper door somewhere after the filter. 
=

Alex M

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 4:19 AM, <ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote:
= =0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
Alex
=0A
 
=0A
Remembering back, It see= ms as if the manifold pressure, at WOT seemed to be =0Aalways less than amb= ient. Ram would increase that. Of course, a charger (turbo =0Aor super) wou= ld increase the "ram" pressure even more. In Normally aspirated, =0Athere a= re two types of alternate air. Manual controlled-- ie levers and cables, = =0Aetc, and automatic, which is exactly as you described.(and what I will b= e =0Ausing)
=0A
 
=0A
The usual and critical part of= the induction system for blockage seems to =0Abe between the air inlet and= the filter. The "flapper: door generally has a =0Alight spring holding it = closed. Remember that the throttle plate is downstream =0Aof  the filt= er. When the throttle plate is open, the flowing =0Aair between t= he plate and the trochoids (of course that part of the =0Ainduction system = downstream of the plate) has the least resistance  and =0Athus the MP = is the highest-- going near but not to ambient. As the plate is =0Aclosed, = the little trochoids are sucking against a partially closed orifice and =0A= the MP goes down. (of course, the MP is measured between the plate and the = =0Atrochoid intake port.
=0A
 
=0A
The intake manifo= ld pressure upstream of the throttle plate does not suffer =0Athe same fate= , as a matter of fact, logic (who says that is right) says that the =0Apres= sure in that part of the manifold might even be inversely affected.
= =0A
 
=0A
Now if you have a blockage before the alte= rnate air flapper (assuming =0Aautomatic, the trochoids are sucking against= that blockage making the pressure =0Ain the plenum between the blockage an= d the throttle plate decrease below =0Aambient, the door swings inward (hig= h ambient vs low internal) and the engine =0Acan still breathe.
=0A 
=0A
In the planes that I have had with the automatic alte= rnate air, if memory =0Aserves me correctly(no guarantees) the flapper plat= e was part of the air cleaner =0Aassembly.
=0A
 
=0ARich
=0A
 
=0A
=  
=0A
=0A
In a message dated 7/6/2013 8:41:40 P.M. Centra= l Daylight Time, =0Aalex.molten= o@gmail.com writes:
=0A
Ya don't =0A want to pay the f= uel or maintenance on anything burning kerosene..I take your =0A point on = less airflow. Can you tell me which pressure is greater in the intake =0A = manifold, the influence of ram air pressure or intake vacuum pressure. Or d= oes =0A it vary from one to the other according to the cycle.  =0A <= div>
=0A
For an "automatic" homegrown system on a 2 rotor wo= uld it work to have a =0A spring loaded door opening inward into the intak= e manifold, fed by interior =0A cowling air when the main system is blocke= d. It makes sense to me to have a =0A door open for a negative pressure in= the intake manifold which i imagine would =0A be the case of a blocked re= gular air intake and ongoing intake vacuum =0A pressure. Would a door like= this be kept shut under normal conditions of =0A positive ram air, to pre= serve ram air which is what we want? =0A

=0A
Alex M=0A
=0A
=0A

=0A
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 12:08 AM, <ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
Interesting concept, I can see = how that would eliminate a lot of FOD, =0A however that is not how alter= nate air systems work for piston/rotor type =0A engines.
=0A  
=0A
That is almost the reverse. My guess is that the = airflow in the PT6 is =0A hughly greater than in a 2 or 3 rotor engine a= nd the kinetic energy of the =0A FOD is significantly less. Additionally= , the alternate air is to allow air =0A to flow if the induction system = gets blocked. this valve works in the =0A reverse. The greater the press= ure upstream the more it will open and in fact =0A will vent the presure= (FOD/rain etc) overboard
=0A
 
=0A =0A
 
=0A
Would that we could all f= ly Turboprops
=0A
 
=0A
Rich
=0A =0A
 
=0A
=0A
In a message dated 7/6/20= 13 1:12:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alex.molteno@gmail.com = writes:
=0A
Hello Lynn =0A

=0A =
Are you referring to a similar system you see on the Pratt and =0A = Whitney PT6 series engine, basically reversing the flow of air 180 degre= es =0A before entering the compressor (throttle body for us i guess). = The inertia =0A of the FOD or ice particles doesn't let them "make the= turn" into the =0A throttle body and they exit the duct via a bypass = flap. In this case the =0A opening of the flap creates the 180 degree = turn and spillover air =0A exit?
=0A

=0A =
Alex =0A M


<= /div>



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