X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-la0-f50.google.com ([209.85.215.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6347763 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 09:20:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.50; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-la0-f50.google.com with SMTP id dy20so11983982lab.37 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:19:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=wBM5tdLTaMY9RIC5IvamhygIVcMLwJl2SjhCEP9H2XE=; b=VR56qePBq6iyldEDfDyL58uxwMOKv6xUt9XL6jaidBVDQAMwWECoUwjWcd6XJoGb4l yh/rtzTHPiRw74TjwYtL5sPsHC0BoxeW9BPOvEWm/QVbCP9tDPs+dhYvgte7osR6Q7Q+ F/A3sgZXUjLNTJ+78itmadIIS8NOOc5tl0CBu/M0laQOCWmqILv3PTkTNHYyOxe2lnmG 70rnktfAG+fbNhUui3e7CNCw4A3eI6agh/oL5Afyztl3TLVzw/Y3fkP72pSzlWhxBymC UBX9CLVMslCEoyBLmZ7VvNr1LVE8YI8+ApXEEVanS1cFxFg4JH+iD5MOphMZtHTF4B6L Hm/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.159.169 with SMTP id xd9mr14929754lbb.43.1372166388413; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.60.70 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:19:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:19:48 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a11c3cdba277a3b04dffa621f --001a11c3cdba277a3b04dffa621f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3cdba277a3904dffa621e --001a11c3cdba277a3904dffa621e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Detonation can definitely cause the damage you saw, but that would be my second most likely event after FOD. To get detonation you would have to have not checked your timing very well AND gone to nearly full power. That turbo is very similar to mine. I wish I had a larger A/R but .81 is adequate and worked for me to make over 300hp at Reno. But even then I was still not using full throttle. I set a limit of 45 inches for Reno. My normal limit is 40 inches for take off (and that is short periods only). I currently have the waste gate removed and the turbo will only do about 38 inches at sea level.. which is perfect for the RV and keeps a rein on my lead-foot (or fist). Before using those higher boost levels, I checked and re-checked my timing like Tracy instructs, then I backed off the advance a couple degrees. The first time for hitting those powers was always in flight over an airport. I have a well-fed intercooler and keep my oil and water temps under 180 (except at Reno when my oil temp crept up around 210 by the end of the race despite a spray nozzle on my oil cooler). But I still think you had FOD :-) Good Luck! On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 7:23 PM, wrote: > Lynn, Tracy, David and Jeff; > Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note, I may have > experienced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no > intercooler, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires switche= d > on the rear rotor (tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one when > removing the engine) > I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was the > front side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rot= or > (near the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched > lead/trail plug wires. > Confused? > I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with .81 AR on-center exhaust > housing. It has a 60-1 compressor. I have been warned that the AR is t= oo > tight, so I just ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I plan to go back > together with stock port '87 side housings to get a slightly slower idle > (previously street ported). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors. > I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the tail > tethered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust > sitting in the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM. > Questions: Tracy, > 1) Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or is there a > difference? > 2) What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I can check > without scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while cranki= ng > over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lehanover > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 3:32 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine > > *A detonation event at wide open throttle will usually break out the > dowel hole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC models and > Mazda added material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines. > Detonation will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears > off and compression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock > sensor causes the timing to be pulled out smartly. * > ** > *A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plug wire or > front ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iron dowe= l > hole. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD can d= o > in either dowel hole. * > ** > *Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in NA > engines. It is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat > recommends testing boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total > advance, and racing on not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes u= p > so does effective compression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front > velocity) goes up and the amount of advance required to maximum cylinder > pressure at 50 degrees ATDC goes down. * > ** > *Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cooling the > oil to reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over 1= 80 > degrees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers > helps. Run over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixtu= re > helps. Over rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane > fuel.* > *Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps. * > ** > *Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut pressed > into a piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD event of > any but microscopic size.* > *Run an air filter for all powered operations. * > ** > *On another note:* > ** > *I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her male > friend. I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her frie= nd > were not. It seems as though several thousands of * > *guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to my > daughter when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see t= he > outcome. But I was too late. * > ** > *In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an altitude. > It was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The roll to > inverted was crisp and slowed the plane further.* > *The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then I suspect > he attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only a > second of inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverte= d. > The down wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled > it off. There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large > fire ball. The engine sounded* > *like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last night was > the first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but > attendance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank > you Obama.* > ** > *Lynn E. Hanover* > ** > In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jwhaley@datacast.com writes: > > I broke an iron once =85 the engine slipped during hoisting and broke t= he > casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =85 not thermal shock. > Jeff > > From: > Tracy > Subject: > Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine > Date: > Mon, 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600 > To: > Rotary motors in aircraft > *[image: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-H.txt]*<= http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-H.txt> > > *[image: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-P.txt]* > FWIW, the thermal shock story is totally bogus. > > Tracy > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard wrote: > Scott, > I have never heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock. I routinely > mistreat mine in that manner. > Don't forget to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of salt. H= e > has not always been the most straight forward of salesmen. > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery wrote: > I showed the damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Dave > Atkins, the local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but the entry > point is a mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: thermal shock. The > aluminum rotor housing experienced thermal expansion faster and greater > than the side iron because I went to high power before the engine was > sufficiently warm. The alignment dowel was moved outward by the growing > aluminum housing and cracked out the side iron around the dowel, which is > also the oil gallery > > Sent from my iPhone > > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for th= e > addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any > unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our > internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html > > --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --001a11c3cdba277a3904dffa621e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Detonation can definitely cause the damage you saw, but th= at would be my second most likely event after FOD. =A0To get detonation you= would have to have not checked your timing very well AND gone to nearly fu= ll power.

That turbo is very similar to mine. =A0I wish I had a larger= A/R but .81 is adequate and worked for me to make over 300hp at Reno. =A0B= ut even then I was still not using full throttle. =A0I set a limit of 45 in= ches for Reno. =A0My normal limit is 40 inches for take off (and that is sh= ort periods only). =A0I currently have the waste gate removed and the turbo= will only do about 38 inches at sea level.. =A0which is perfect for the RV= and keeps a rein on my lead-foot (or fist).

Before using those higher boost levels, I checked and r= e-checked my timing like Tracy instructs, then I backed off the advance a c= ouple degrees. =A0The first time for hitting those powers was always in fli= ght over an airport.

I have a well-fed intercooler and keep my oil and water= temps under 180 (except at Reno when my oil temp crept up around 210 by th= e end of the race despite a spray nozzle on my oil cooler).

But I still think you had FOD =A0:-)
<= br>
Good Luck!


On Mon,= Jun 24, 2013 at 7:23 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
Lynn, Tracy,=A0David and Jeff;
Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note,=A0I may have e= xperienced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no int= ercooler, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires switched= on the rear rotor=A0(tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one when remo= ving the engine)
I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was the = front side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rotor= (near the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched lead= /trail plug wires.
Confused?
I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with=A0.81 AR on-center exhaust housing= .=A0=A0=A0=A0It has a 60-1 compressor. I have been warned that the AR is to= o tight, so I just ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I plan to go back tog= ether with stock port '87 side housings to get a slightly slower idle (= previously street ported). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors.
I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the tai= l tethered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust = sitting in the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM.
Questions: Tracy,
1) =A0Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or is t= here a difference?
2)=A0 What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I can = check without scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while cr= anking over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off.
=A0
=A0
-----Original Message-----
From: Lehanover <= Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= div class=3D"h5"> Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 3:32 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine

A detonation event at wide open throttle=A0will usually break= =20 out the dowel hole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC model= s and=20 Mazda added material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines.=20 Detonation will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears o= ff=20 and compression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock sensor= =20 causes the timing to be pulled out smartly.
=A0
A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plu= g=20 wire or front ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iro= n=20 dowel hole. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD c= an do=20 in either dowel hole.
=A0
Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in = NA=20 engines. It is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat recommend= s=20 testing boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total advance, and r= acing=20 on not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes up so does effective=20 compression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front velocity) goes up and the= =20 amount of advance required to maximum cylinder pressure at 50 degrees ATDC = goes=20 down.
=A0
Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cool= ing=20 the oil to reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over= 180=20 degrees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers helps= . Run=20 over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixture helps. Ove= r=20 rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane=20 fuel.
Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps.
=A0
Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut= =20 pressed into a piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD ev= ent=20 of any but microscopic size.
Run an air filter for all powered operations. =A0
=A0
On another note:
=A0
I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her = male=20 friend. I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her friend= were=20 not. It seems as though several thousands of
guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to= my=20 daughter when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see the= =20 outcome. But I was too late.
=A0
In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an= =20 altitude. It was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The = roll=20 to inverted was crisp and slowed the plane further.
The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then = I=20 suspect he attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only= a=20 second of inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverted.= The=20 down wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled it of= f.=20 There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large fire ball. = The=20 engine sounded
like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last = night=20 was the first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but= =20 attendance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank yo= u=20 Obama.
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover
=A0
In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 jwhaley@datacast.= com writes:
=20
=20
I broke an iron once =85 =A0the engine slipped dur= ing=20 hoisting and broke the casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =85 no= t=20 thermal shock.
=20
Jeff
=20
=A0
=20
From:
 =20
Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com>
=20
Subject:
 =20
Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine
=20
Date:
 =20
Mon,=20 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600
=20
To:
 =20
Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 =20
3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-H.txt"=

3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/5=
=20
FWIW,=20 =A0the thermal shock story is totally bogus.=A0
=20
=A0
=20
Tracy=A0

Sent=20 from my iPad
=20

On Jun=20 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail= .com>=20 wrote:
=20
Scott,=20
=20
I have never=20 heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock. =A0I routinely mistre= at=20 mine in that manner. =A0
=20
Don't forget=20 to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of salt. =A0He has= =20 not always been the most straight forward of salesmen.
=20
=A0<= /div> =20
On Fri, Jun=20 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery <shipchief@aol.com>=20 wrote:
=20
I showed th= e=20 damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Dave Atkins, th= e=20 local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but the entry point = is a=20 mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: thermal shock. The alumi= num=20 rotor housing experienced thermal expansion faster and greater than= the=20 side iron because I went to high power before the engine was=20 sufficiently warm. The alignment dowel was moved outward by the gro= wing=20 aluminum housing and cracked out the side iron around the dowel, wh= ich=20 is also the oil gallery

Sent from my=20 iPhone
=20
=A0
This message, and the documents attached=20 hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or= =20 confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibi= ted.=20 If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately = so=20 that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original= =20 message. Thank you.
=20



--
David= Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
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