X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6347254 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:24:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.80; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.137]) by omr-m06.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 5FE20700000AF for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-ddc004b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddc004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.141]) by mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 0552BE00008A for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:23:58 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D03F622E5407AA_94C_5D5E5_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37834-STANDARD Received: from 174.61.189.169 by Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com (64.12.232.218) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:23:57 -0400 Message-Id: <8D03F622E4A8226-94C-1913B@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [174.61.189.169] Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:23:57 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/91680 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1372127038; bh=QVWZ0qPfqfRNwj8GaFkh8nx4nIelhybEmNUc7gnfgko=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GDdhT4suzBgXQtORLPNQh4LHEPRSmg1JtRlX8zvgBJfreLJqSkoitabkyp+q+Rsgp wTfMYReDKJ77QfrOXzyi92iga5Ss9yN24IJj1Y9yEvEhA/NhMrisRwFcUOxIwAmbCl sPzNX27qMF91R3q4ICq2F9a2sxaR4O1oYKrAvzUw= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:517840832:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 2 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338951c8ff3e7b01 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D03F622E5407AA_94C_5D5E5_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Lynn, Tracy, David and Jeff; Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note, I may have experien= ced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no intercoole= r, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires switched on the rea= r rotor (tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one when removing the engi= ne) I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was the front= side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rotor (nea= r the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched lead/trai= l plug wires. Confused?=20 I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with .81 AR on-center exhaust housing. It= has a 60-1 compressor. I have been warned that the AR is too tight, so I j= ust ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I plan to go back together with stoc= k port '87 side housings to get a slightly slower idle (previously street p= orted). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors. I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the tail tet= hered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust sitting i= n the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM.=20 Questions: Tracy, 1) Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or is there a diff= erence?=20 2) What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I can check w= ithout scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while cranking = over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off. -----Original Message----- From: Lehanover To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 3:32 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine A detonation event at wide open throttle will usually break out the dowel h= ole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC models and Mazda add= ed material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines. Detonation = will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears off and comp= ression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock sensor causes t= he timing to be pulled out smartly.=20 =20 A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plug wire or fro= nt ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iron dowel hol= e. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD can do in = either dowel hole.=20 =20 Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in NA engines. I= t is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat recommends testing = boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total advance, and racing on= not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes up so does effective comp= ression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front velocity) goes up and the amo= unt of advance required to maximum cylinder pressure at 50 degrees ATDC goe= s down.=20 =20 Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cooling the oil t= o reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over 180 degr= ees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers helps. Ru= n over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixture helps. O= ver rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane fuel. Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps.=20 =20 Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut pressed into a= piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD event of any but= microscopic size. Run an air filter for all powered operations. =20 =20 On another note: =20 I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her male friend. = I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her friend were no= t. It seems as though several thousands of=20 guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to my daughter = when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see the outcome.= But I was too late.=20 =20 In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an altitude. It= was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The roll to inve= rted was crisp and slowed the plane further. The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then I suspect he = attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only a second o= f inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverted. The dow= n wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled it off. = There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large fire ball. = The engine sounded like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last night was the= first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but attend= ance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank you Obam= a. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jwhaley@da= tacast.com writes: =20 =20 I broke an iron once =E2=80=A6 the engine slipped during hoisting and br= oke the casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =E2=80=A6 not thermal= shock. =20 Jeff =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: =20 =20 Tracy =20 =20 =20 Subject: =20 =20 Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine =20 =20 =20 Date: =20 =20 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600 =20 =20 =20 To: =20 =20 Rotary motors in aircraft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 FWIW, the thermal shock story is totally bogus.=20 =20 =20 =20 Tracy=20 Sent from my iPad =20 On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard = wrote: =20 Scott, =20 =20 I have never heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock. I routi= nely mistreat mine in that manner. =20 =20 Don't forget to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of sa= lt. He has not always been the most straight forward of salesmen. =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery = wrote: =20 I showed the damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Da= ve Atkins, the local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but t= he entry point is a mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: ther= mal shock. The aluminum rotor housing experienced thermal expansion= faster and greater than the side iron because I went to high power= before the engine was sufficiently warm. The alignment dowel was m= oved outward by the growing aluminum housing and cracked out the si= de iron around the dowel, which is also the oil gallery Sent from my iPhone =20 =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the= addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any un= authorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this m= essage in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html =20 ----------MB_8D03F622E5407AA_94C_5D5E5_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="--------MB_8D03F622E5407AA_94C_5D5E6_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com" ----------MB_8D03F622E5407AA_94C_5D5E6_Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Lynn, Tracy, David and Jeff;
Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note, I may hav= e experienced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no = intercooler, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires switc= hed on the rear rotor (tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one whe= n removing the engine)
I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was the = front side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rotor= (near the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched lead= /trail plug wires.
Confused?
I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with .81 AR on-center exhaust hous= ing.    It has a 60-1 compressor. I have been warned th= at the AR is too tight, so I just ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I plan= to go back together with stock port '87 side housings to get a slightly sl= ower idle (previously street ported). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors.
I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the tai= l tethered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust sitt= ing in the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM.
Questions: Tracy,
1)  Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or i= s there a difference?
2)  What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I c= an check without scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while= cranking over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lehanover <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 3:32 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine

A detonation event at wide open throttle will usually bre= ak=20 out the dowel hole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC model= s and=20 Mazda added material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines.=20 Detonation will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears o= ff=20 and compression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock sensor= =20 causes the timing to be pulled out smartly.
 
A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plu= g=20 wire or front ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iro= n=20 dowel hole. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD c= an do=20 in either dowel hole.
 
Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in = NA=20 engines. It is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat recommend= s=20 testing boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total advance, and r= acing=20 on not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes up so does effective=20 compression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front velocity) goes up and the= =20 amount of advance required to maximum cylinder pressure at 50 degrees ATDC = goes=20 down.
 
Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cool= ing=20 the oil to reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over= 180=20 degrees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers helps= . Run=20 over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixture helps. Ove= r=20 rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane=20 fuel.
Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps.
 
Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut= =20 pressed into a piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD ev= ent=20 of any but microscopic size.
Run an air filter for all powered operations.  <= /div>
 
On another note:
 
I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her = male=20 friend. I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her friend= were=20 not. It seems as though several thousands of
guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to= my=20 daughter when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see the= =20 outcome. But I was too late.
 
In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an= =20 altitude. It was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The = roll=20 to inverted was crisp and slowed the plane further.
The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then = I=20 suspect he attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only= a=20 second of inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverted.= The=20 down wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled it of= f.=20 There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large fire ball. = The=20 engine sounded
like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last = night=20 was the first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but= =20 attendance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank yo= u=20 Obama.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 jwhaley@datacast.com writes:
=20
=20
I broke an iron once =E2=80=A6  the engine sl= ipped during=20 hoisting and broke the casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =E2=80= =A6 not=20 thermal shock.
=20
Jeff
=20
 
=20
From:
 =20
Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmai= l.com>
=20
Subject:
 =20
Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine
=20
Date:
 =20
Mon,=20 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600
=20
To:
 =20
Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
 =20
3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59=

3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=
=20
FWIW,=20  the thermal shock story is totally bogus. 
=20
 
=20
Tracy 

Sent=20 from my iPad
=20

On Jun=20 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
=20
Scott,=20
=20
I have never=20 heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock.  I routinely mis= treat=20 mine in that manner.  
=20
Don't forget=20 to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of salt.  He = has=20 not always been the most straight forward of salesmen.
=20
 
=20
On Fri, Jun=20 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery <shipchief@aol.com>=20 wrote:
=20
I showed the=20 damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Dave Atkins, th= e=20 local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but the entry point = is a=20 mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: thermal shock. The alumi= num=20 rotor housing experienced thermal expansion faster and greater than= the=20 side iron because I went to high power before the engine was=20 sufficiently warm. The alignment dowel was moved outward by the gro= wing=20 aluminum housing and cracked out the side iron around the dowel, wh= ich=20 is also the oil gallery

Sent from my=20 iPhone
=20
 
This message, and the documents attached=20 hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or= =20 confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibi= ted.=20 If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately = so=20 that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original= =20 message. Thank you.
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