X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6347124 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:32:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.75; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.75]) by omr-m01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 807D77007F30B for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mob002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mob002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.194.197]) by mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 4196FE00008D for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:32:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: <4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 55 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.28.139] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/91676 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1372113126; bh=jX+rxxRIqRWCmd6iU+ibcb8o+q5eiXCr1YOB+0+5fvI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zINEKdROBDTRYiTe/x/CBEURIvgl0z7ExwguA904r9rFCtafEU1j1NghTSIbTbY+U nUdk5Mh3DD7ULXKkRUEXFVtbKg5FvQn4A1hvg0N0IUR7sz1h8wcZXsoS/eNZ7RPm1J xJ9uxRJ0if/3/bMjzGrWAsdTAlg68IFyfbhgg6nk= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:513789792:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 2 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294b51c8c8e63ddd --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_boundary Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_rel_boundary" --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_rel_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="4abf8.4c668e56_alt_bound" --4abf8.4c668e56_alt_bound Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en A detonation event at wide open throttle will usually break out the dowel= =20 hole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC models and Mazda= =20 added material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines. Detonat= ion=20 will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears off and=20 compression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock sensor cau= ses=20 the timing to be pulled out smartly.=20 =20 A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plug wire or=20 front ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iron dowel= =20 hole. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD can do = in=20 either dowel hole.=20 =20 Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in NA engines.= =20 It is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat recommends testin= g=20 boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total advance, and racing = =20 on not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes up so does effective = =20 compression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front velocity) goes up and the= =20 amount of advance required to maximum cylinder pressure at 50 degrees ATDC= =20 goes down.=20 =20 Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cooling the oil= =20 to reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over 180 =20 degrees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers helps= .=20 Run over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixture helps= .=20 Over rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane fuel. Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps.=20 =20 Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut pressed into= =20 a piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD event of any= =20 but microscopic size. Run an air filter for all powered operations. =20 =20 On another note: =20 I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her male friend.= =20 I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her friend were = =20 not. It seems as though several thousands of=20 guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to my daughter= =20 when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see the =20 outcome. But I was too late.=20 =20 In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an altitude.= =20 It was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The roll to= =20 inverted was crisp and slowed the plane further. The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then I suspect he= =20 attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only a second= =20 of inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverted. The = =20 down wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled it of= f. =20 There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large fire ball.= =20 The engine sounded like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last night was=20 the first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but =20 attendance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank yo= u =20 Obama. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20 jwhaley@datacast.com writes: =20 I broke an iron once =E2=80=A6 the engine slipped during hoisting and bro= ke the=20 casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =E2=80=A6 not thermal shock.= =20 Jeff=20 From: =20 Tracy =20 Subject: =20 Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine =20 Date: =20 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600 =20 To: =20 Rotary motors in aircraft =20 (http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-H.txt)=20 (http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-P.txt) =20 FWIW, the thermal shock story is totally bogus. =20 Tracy=20 Sent from my iPad=20 On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard <_wdleonard@gmail.com_=20 (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > wrote:=20 Scott, =20 I have never heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock. I routinely=20 mistreat mine in that manner. =20 Don't forget to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of salt. He= =20 has not always been the most straight forward of salesmen.=20 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery <_shipchief@aol.com_=20 (mailto:shipchief@aol.com) > wrote:=20 I showed the damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Dave=20 Atkins, the local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but the entry p= oint=20 is a mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: thermal shock. The aluminu= m=20 rotor housing experienced thermal expansion faster and greater than the = =20 side iron because I went to high power before the engine was sufficiently= =20 warm. The alignment dowel was moved outward by the growing aluminum housin= g=20 and cracked out the side iron around the dowel, which is also the oil gall= ery Sent from my iPhone=20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the= =20 addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any=20 unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this= =20 message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our= =20 internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --4abf8.4c668e56_alt_bound Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
A detonation event at wide open throttle will usually bre= ak=20 out the dowel hole in the rear iron. This was a big problem in the FC model= s and=20 Mazda added material around the dowel hole in the FD twin turbo engines.=20 Detonation will continue until some parameter changes, like a seal shears o= ff=20 and compression is lost. Throttle setting is reduced, or, the knock sensor= =20 causes the timing to be pulled out smartly.
 
A crossfire where a rear housing plug wire excites a front plu= g=20 wire or front ignition primary or trigger wire will break out the front iro= n=20 dowel hole. That is a 180 degree too soon ignition advance. A lump of FOD c= an do=20 in either dowel hole.
 
Detonation is charge temperature dependant. It is uncommon in = NA=20 engines. It is common in boosted engines. Notice that Racing Beat recommend= s=20 testing boosted engines at not more than 10 degrees of total advance, and r= acing=20 on not more than 12 degrees. As boost pressure goes up so does effective=20 compression ratio. So, the burn rate (Flame front velocity) goes up and the= =20 amount of advance required to maximum cylinder pressure at 50 degrees ATDC = goes=20 down.
 
Intercoolers are used to reduce charge temperatures. Over cool= ing=20 the oil to reduce rotor face temperatures is a help. Coolant temps not over= 180=20 degrees helps. Water spray on the intercoolers, water and oil coolers helps= . Run=20 over rich during high throttle settings to fuel cool the mixture helps. Ove= r=20 rich premix includes extra top oil as well. Using high octane=20 fuel.
Using ICE COLD heat range plugs helps.
 
Piston engines can survive a FOD event (you find a 10-24 nut= =20 pressed into a piston top 2 years later) a rotary will not survive a FOD ev= ent=20 of any but microscopic size.
Run an air filter for all powered operations.  <= /DIV>
 
On another note:
 
I saw the Dayton airshow crash along with my daughter and her = male=20 friend. I am jaded to this type of disaster, but my daughter and her friend= were=20 not. It seems as though several thousands of
guests were not ready to suffer this calamity. I called out to= my=20 daughter when I saw the problem hoping she would turn to me and not see the= =20 outcome. But I was too late.
 
In my opinion: The turn into the show line was from too low an= =20 altitude. It was very hot about 86 degrees. The turn was to down wind. The = roll=20 to inverted was crisp and slowed the plane further.
The pilot pushed forward stick (late) to raise the nose, then = I=20 suspect he attempted to roll upright when he felt a stall start, after only= a=20 second of inverted and I saw him pull up elevator while partially inverted.= The=20 down wing struck the ground. Another 25 feet and he might have pulled it of= f.=20 There was very little fuel on board, but enough to make a large fire ball. = The=20 engine sounded
like it was making full power all the way to the ground. Last = night=20 was the first time I did not dream of it. The show went on again Sunday but= =20 attendance was even worse than Saturday. No military stuff at all. Thank yo= u=20 Obama.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 6/24/2013 3:00:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 jwhaley@datacast.com writes:

I broke an iron once =E2=80=A6  the engine slip= ped during=20 hoisting and broke the casting of one outside tension bolt carrier =E2=80= =A6 not=20 thermal shock.

Jeff

 

From:

Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com>

Subject:

Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine

Date:

Mon,=20 24 Jun 2013 11:00:53 -0600

To:

Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

3Dhttp://lancairo=

3Dhttp://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59927-P.txt

FWIW,=20  the thermal shock story is totally bogus. 

 

Tracy 

Sent=20 from my iPad


On Jun=20 24, 2013, at 9:44, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.co= m>=20 wrote:

Scott,=20

I have never=20 heard of an iron breaking from thermal shock.  I routinely mis= treat=20 mine in that manner.  

Don't forget=20 to take everything Dave Atkins says with a grain of salt.  He = has=20 not always been the most straight forward of salesmen.

 =

On Fri, Jun=20 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Scott Emery <shipchief@aol.com>=20 wrote:

I showed the= =20 damaged rotor, rotor housing and front side iron to Dave Atkins, th= e=20 local expert. He thinks my engine suffered FOD but the entry point = is a=20 mystery. The broken side iron is My fault: thermal shock. The alumi= num=20 rotor housing experienced thermal expansion faster and greater than= the=20 side iron because I went to high power before the engine was=20 sufficiently warm. The alignment dowel was moved outward by the gro= wing=20 aluminum housing and cracked out the side iron around the dowel, wh= ich=20 is also the oil gallery

Sent from my=20 iPhone

 

This message, and the documents atta= ched=20 hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or= =20 confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibi= ted.=20 If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately = so=20 that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original= =20 message. Thank you. --4abf8.4c668e56_alt_bound-- --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_rel_boundary Content-ID: Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_rel_boundary Content-ID: Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_rel_boundary-- --part1_4abf8.4c668e56.3efa22e4_boundary--