X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com ([209.85.214.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6344835 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 19:27:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.54; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-bk0-f54.google.com with SMTP id it16so3805012bkc.13 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/8M9PMrZr7eKIoQE98WDoYAHCRm+pLrDg5yXrXPUns4=; b=i1sQ24kY+6c7R/Wm6DGO1C1jILf99rwrKQcZ+kmD5jGgRIDGH//48vqMUegiwJQRIO Y1IdLA17aN2LGKhWgYustvI1fx4dkzHX6Krp/i+5Lz8AXxGI+/DE2hLJQ/97nhpxt4MD kTBAQVvFWrLRI4GwEymw3NBY8qqFImaEvmG92IF8LtyVqe4JT+IUGjdUxQ3ACpnLNzPR PrqH04j+0MtM7I/As6FnlPKSnwmT3lELsk4eDZDduYHdO9pRXRX+OrXoOhxhETGtwARz YX2qgGlPRDhLvffmbNt6KbfrDXBMxblosyGnP3C0ImHMCXf2tw7jOBcbTVT2Ea/Bddcd uPLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.185.201 with SMTP id cp9mr1347753bkb.128.1371943641212; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.186.79 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 18:27:21 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure AGAIN From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3020774a63195204dfc68538 --20cf3020774a63195204dfc68538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm sure you will let us know what you find. Mark On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > I have yet to check the pressure regulators but its on the list. I first > intend to check pressure with a manual gage at various locations. I also > intend to isolate the remote filter, the main cooler and the front cooler > and see what I get before I take anything apart. > > Also, I have all but decided to take the front oil cooler out of the > system completely. Oil temp has mot been an issue and I think the standard > oil cooler is sufficient. The front oil cooler was installed per plans for > a Velocity with a Lycoming to provide cabin heat. However, it greatly > complicates my oil plumbing as it is in parallel plumbing install to > accommodate the front aviation cooler (plumbed in series the pressure was > too high and oil seeped out of the oil filter as the front cooler seemed to > provide a restriction). Cabin heat is a minor concern most the year in > Houston....also, it's my understanding it is marginal heating at best. When > I need cabin heat, it seems to be more logical to use the coolant system > than oil as is in the car. This should be a pretty straight forward mod and > may take some of the "strain" off the oil pump as its about a twenty + foot > round trip to and from the front cooler. > > I have not dropped the pan yet to check the pickup. However, the pickup > was properly torqued and then safety wired. The bolts are longer to > accommodate the engine mounting plate. Something may be blocking it but I'm > at a loss as to what. > > Sent from my iPhone 5 > > On Jun 22, 2013, at 16:33, "Mark Steitle" wrote: > > Chris, > > OK, so much for that as a possibility. Have you checked your pressure > regulators? One may be stuck open. Just a thought. > > Another possibility is the oil pump pickup. The screen could be > plugged, and/or there could be a poor seal where the pickup tube attaches > to the pump. > > Have you checked your front cover to see that it is flat and not warped? > > > Mark > > > On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > >> I did not remove the shaft. I simply blocked the mount with a plate. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5 >> >> On Jun 22, 2013, at 15:11, "Mark Steitle" wrote: >> >> Did you remove the OMP shaft? If you removed it, did you plug the oil >> galley? >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Chris Barber > > wrote: >> >>> Pre-mix. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone 5 >>> >>> On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:36, "Mark Steitle" wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> One question... are you running the oil injection pump or did you >>> remove and go with pre-mix? >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Chris Barber >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, Mark, that's my thinking too. I think I posted to share more >>>> than expecting a magic billet solution. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone 5 >>>> >>>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 18:45, "Mark Steitle" wrote: >>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> At this point I wouldn't take anything for granted. I would install >>>> multiple oil pressure gauges throughout the system, one right at the front >>>> cover and one at the oil filter adapter block. It seems to me that there's >>>> got to be something you've overlooked. Suspect everything. >>>> >>>> I had an oil cooling problem that I couldn't seem to get a handle on >>>> until one day I noticed the upper tank of my dual pass oil cooler was >>>> shaped differently than the other end. It was bowed outward. In this >>>> design (dual-pass), there is a dam between the inlet and outlet ports. It >>>> is a tight fit, but it isn't welded to the tank. So, when the tank bowed, >>>> it allowed most of the oil to bypass the core, essentially rendering the >>>> oil cooler useless. I installed a new oil cooler and all is well. >>>> >>>> I tell this story to emphasize not to take anything for granted. >>>> Suspect everything, verify everything. You will find the problem hiding >>>> somewhere you never would have thought of in a million years. Think like >>>> inspector Columbo, "... just one more question, ma'am." >>>> >>>> Mark S. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Chris Barber < >>>> cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, if any of y'all are curious about my progress, I am grounded in >>>>> Phase One. >>>>> >>>>> I am having oil pressure problems again. The frustration is huge. To >>>>> add to this, most of the archive searches I have made give results that >>>>> prominently feature my inquiries. >>>>> >>>>> Following my engine out over the airport in April traced to gunk in >>>>> the fuel rail, mods were made to the fuel system. During static tests the >>>>> oil pressure would never come up to expectations. >>>>> >>>>> Hoping to lick the front o-ring problem that I have had SEVERAL times >>>>> now, I pulled the front cover to take a look see. The o-ring was torn. >>>>> >>>>> I choose to be more assertive in trying to address this problem. I >>>>> modified a brass fitting by grinding the OD to make it it cleanly fit >>>>> inside the front iron (also, ground the inside diameter to keep flow as >>>>> close as possible to stock) and tapped the front housing to accept the >>>>> fitting to screw in. I then placed an o-ring around the fitting. I did not >>>>> include the silicone ring this time as it kept preventing the smooth mating >>>>> it the iron and cover. >>>>> >>>>> While apart, I verified the woodruff key was properly installed in the >>>>> oil pump. The oil pump was replaced last time the cover was off. I also >>>>> verified the oil pressure relief valve. It was still in place (not >>>>> surprising since it has been safety wired in following it falling out once). >>>>> >>>>> I buttoned everything back up being meticulous that the o-ring mod >>>>> seated properly. However, my oil pressure is still low. It's in the >>>>> twenties (psi) while idling. This is not too bad as Racing Beat states this >>>>> is acceptable at idle. But, when I rev it up to as much as 6000 (only long >>>>> enough to verify trend) it only goes into the 30's. NOT acceptable. >>>>> >>>>> The engine has had carb jets replace the e-shaft ball. I believe this >>>>> can lower the oil pressure a bit. Also, there is a front oil cooler >>>>> installed. This necessitates about a 12 foot oil line run. It is plumbed in >>>>> parallel. This could provide a bit lower pressure too I think. >>>>> >>>>> I using a mixture of Royal Purple 30, 40 and 50 oil. I added what was >>>>> available at the time. >>>>> >>>>> I have yet to check the oil pressure regulator. I specifically >>>>> remember installing it to torque with blue lock-tight last time I had >>>>> access. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to isolate the engine from the coolers and filter and take >>>>> readings using a mechanical gage. Currently I have two electronic gages, >>>>> one for the RWS monitor and one for the SkyView monitor. They both read >>>>> within a couple of psi from each other. >>>>> >>>>> If not for this Achilles Heal I would very likely out of Phase One and >>>>> planning a trip to Osh. It has been a major distraction of energy and time. >>>>> >>>>> I know it could be bearings but the stationary gears and bearings were >>>>> replaced at the last rebuild. Everything else seemed in spec. >>>>> >>>>> The front eccentric thermostat was replaced with the plug. >>>>> >>>>> The oil is flowing as the system heats up evenly. I need to see if the >>>>> hoses are hard while running, as the no-pistons site says, hard like a >>>>> brick. >>>>> >>>>> Insight as to what may be my problem and diagnostic course is always >>>>> appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> I hope I have provided enough info and not omitted relevant >>>>> information. >>>>> >>>>> I really can't express my annoyance/anger/disgust properly. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again folks. >>>>> >>>>> Chris Barber. >>>>> Houston >>>>> Velocity 13b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone 5 >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --20cf3020774a63195204dfc68538 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm sure you will let us know what you find. =A0
<= br>
Mark


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
I have yet to check the pressure regulators but its on the list. I fir= st intend to check pressure with a manual gage at various locations. I also= intend to isolate the remote filter, the main cooler and the front cooler = and see what I get before I take anything apart.=A0

Also, I have all but decided to take the front oil cooler out of the s= ystem completely. Oil temp has mot been an issue and I think the standard o= il cooler is sufficient. =A0The front oil cooler was installed per plans fo= r a Velocity with a Lycoming to provide cabin heat. However, it greatly complicates my oil plumbing as it is in pa= rallel plumbing install to accommodate the front aviation cooler (plumbed i= n series the pressure was too high and oil seeped out of the oil filter as = the front cooler seemed to provide a restriction). Cabin heat is a minor concern most the year in Houston....= also, it's my understanding it is marginal heating at best. When I need= cabin heat, it seems to be more logical to use the coolant system than oil= as is in the car. This should be a pretty straight forward mod and may take some of the "strain" of= f the oil pump as its about a twenty + foot round trip to and from the fron= t cooler.=A0

I have not dropped the pan yet to check the pickup. However, the picku= p was properly torqued and then safety wired. The bolts are longer to accom= modate the engine mounting plate. Something may be blocking it but I'm = at a loss as to what.=A0

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 16:33, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris,=A0

OK, so much for that as a possibility. =A0Have you checked your pressu= re regulators? =A0One may be stuck open. =A0Just a thought. =A0

Another possibility is the oil pump pickup. =A0The screen could be plu= gged, and/or there could be a poor seal where the pickup tube attaches to t= he pump. =A0

Have you checked your front cover to see that it is flat and not warpe= d? =A0

Mark


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
I did not remove the shaft. I simply blocked the mount with a plate.= =A0

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 15:11, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Did you remove the OMP shaft? =A0If you removed it, did yo= u plug the oil galley?


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Chris Barber <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
Pre-mix.=A0

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:36, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris,=A0

One question... are you running the oil injection pump or did you remo= ve and go with pre-mix? =A0

Mark


On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
Yeah, Mark, that's my thinking too. I think I posted to share more= than expecting a magic billet solution.=A0

Chris

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 21, 2013, at 18:45, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris,=A0

At this point I wouldn't take anything for granted. =A0I would ins= tall multiple oil pressure gauges throughout the system, one right at the f= ront cover and one at the oil filter adapter block. =A0It seems to me that = there's got to be something you've overlooked. =A0Suspect everything. =A0

I had an oil cooling problem that I couldn't seem to get a handle = on until one day I noticed the upper tank of my dual pass oil cooler was sh= aped differently than the other end. =A0It was bowed outward. =A0In this de= sign (dual-pass), there is a dam between the inlet and outlet ports. =A0It is a tight fit, but it isn't welded = to the tank. =A0So, when the tank bowed, it allowed most of the oil to bypa= ss the core, essentially rendering the oil cooler useless. =A0I installed a= new oil cooler and all is well. =A0

I tell this story to emphasize not to take anything for granted. =A0Su= spect everything, verify everything. =A0You will find the problem hiding so= mewhere you never would have thought of in a million years. =A0Think like i= nspector Columbo, "... just one more question, ma'am."

Mark S.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:

Well, if any of y'all are curious about my progress, I am grounded in P= hase One.

I am having oil pressure problems again. The frustration is huge. To add to= this, most of the archive searches I have made give results that prominent= ly feature my inquiries. <sigh>

Following my engine out over the airport in April traced to gunk in the fue= l rail, mods were made to the fuel system. During static tests the oil pres= sure would never come up to expectations.

Hoping to lick the front o-ring problem that I have had SEVERAL times now, = I pulled the front cover to take a look see. The o-ring was torn.

I choose to be more assertive in trying to address this problem. I modified= a brass fitting by grinding the OD to make it it cleanly fit inside the fr= ont iron (also, ground the inside diameter to keep flow as close as possibl= e to stock) and tapped the front housing to accept the fitting to screw in. I then placed an o-ring around = the fitting. I did not include the silicone ring this time as it kept preve= nting the smooth mating it the iron and cover.

While apart, I verified the woodruff key was properly installed in the oil = pump. The oil pump was replaced last time the cover was off. I also verifie= d the oil pressure relief valve. It was still in place (not surprising sinc= e it has been safety wired in following it falling out once).

I buttoned everything back up being meticulous that the o-ring mod seated p= roperly. However, my oil pressure is still low. It's in the twenties (p= si) while idling. This is not too bad as Racing Beat states this is accepta= ble at idle. But, when I rev it up to as much as 6000 (only long enough to verify trend) it only goes into the 3= 0's. NOT acceptable.

The engine has had carb jets replace the e-shaft ball. I believe this can l= ower the oil pressure a bit. Also, there is a front oil cooler installed. T= his necessitates about a 12 foot oil line run. It is plumbed in parallel. T= his could provide a bit lower pressure too I think.

I =A0using a mixture of Royal Purple 30, 40 and 50 oil. I added what was av= ailable at the time.

I have yet to check the oil pressure regulator. I specifically remember ins= talling it to torque with blue lock-tight last time I had access.

I plan to isolate the engine from the coolers and filter and take readings = using a mechanical gage. Currently I have two electronic gages, one for the= RWS monitor and one for the SkyView monitor. They both read within a coupl= e of psi from each other.

If not for this Achilles Heal I would very likely out of Phase One and plan= ning a trip to Osh. It has been a major distraction of energy and time.

I know it could be bearings but the stationary gears and bearings were repl= aced at the last rebuild. Everything else seemed in spec.

The front eccentric thermostat was replaced with the plug.

The oil is flowing as the system heats up evenly. I need to see if the hose= s are hard while running, as the no-pistons site says, hard like a brick.
Insight as to what may be my problem and diagnostic course is always apprec= iated.

I hope I have provided enough info and not omitted relevant information.
I really can't express my annoyance/anger/disgust properly.

Thanks again folks.

Chris Barber.
Houston
Velocity 13b

Sent from my iPhone 5
--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

<= /font>
<= /font>
<= /font>
<= /font>
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