X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.FCDATA.PRIVATE) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6344829 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 19:12:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE (unverified [172.16.5.24]) by VIRCOM1.FCDATA.PRIVATE (Vircom SMTPRS 5.13.1309.15521) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 18:10:43 -0500 X-Modus-BlackList: 172.16.5.24=OK;cbarber@texasattorney.net=OK X-Modus-RBL: 172.16.5.24=Excluded X-Modus-Trusted: 172.16.5.24=NO X-Modus-Audit: FALSE;0;0;0 Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 18:11:07 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure AGAIN Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure AGAIN Thread-Index: AQHOb4/eRp5g1xtaDUqyK77kjwu0J5lCXLJn Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:12:34 +0000 Message-ID: <811533CF-8355-49DA-8D8F-2E36C2F394C0@texasattorney.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_811533CF835549DA8D8F2E36C2F394C0texasattorneynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_811533CF835549DA8D8F2E36C2F394C0texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have yet to check the pressure regulators but its on the list. I first in= tend to check pressure with a manual gage at various locations. I also inte= nd to isolate the remote filter, the main cooler and the front cooler and s= ee what I get before I take anything apart. Also, I have all but decided to take the front oil cooler out of the system= completely. Oil temp has mot been an issue and I think the standard oil co= oler is sufficient. The front oil cooler was installed per plans for a Vel= ocity with a Lycoming to provide cabin heat. However, it greatly complicate= s my oil plumbing as it is in parallel plumbing install to accommodate the = front aviation cooler (plumbed in series the pressure was too high and oil = seeped out of the oil filter as the front cooler seemed to provide a restri= ction). Cabin heat is a minor concern most the year in Houston....also, it'= s my understanding it is marginal heating at best. When I need cabin heat, = it seems to be more logical to use the coolant system than oil as is in the= car. This should be a pretty straight forward mod and may take some of the= "strain" off the oil pump as its about a twenty + foot round trip to and f= rom the front cooler. I have not dropped the pan yet to check the pickup. However, the pickup was= properly torqued and then safety wired. The bolts are longer to accommodat= e the engine mounting plate. Something may be blocking it but I'm at a loss= as to what. Sent from my iPhone 5 On Jun 22, 2013, at 16:33, "Mark Steitle" > wrote: Chris, OK, so much for that as a possibility. Have you checked your pressure regu= lators? One may be stuck open. Just a thought. Another possibility is the oil pump pickup. The screen could be plugged, a= nd/or there could be a poor seal where the pickup tube attaches to the pump= . Have you checked your front cover to see that it is flat and not warped? Mark On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: I did not remove the shaft. I simply blocked the mount with a plate. Sent from my iPhone 5 On Jun 22, 2013, at 15:11, "Mark Steitle" > wrote: Did you remove the OMP shaft? If you removed it, did you plug the oil gall= ey? On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: Pre-mix. Sent from my iPhone 5 On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:36, "Mark Steitle" > wrote: Chris, One question... are you running the oil injection pump or did you remove an= d go with pre-mix? Mark On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: Yeah, Mark, that's my thinking too. I think I posted to share more than exp= ecting a magic billet solution. Chris Sent from my iPhone 5 On Jun 21, 2013, at 18:45, "Mark Steitle" > wrote: Chris, At this point I wouldn't take anything for granted. I would install multip= le oil pressure gauges throughout the system, one right at the front cover = and one at the oil filter adapter block. It seems to me that there's got t= o be something you've overlooked. Suspect everything. I had an oil cooling problem that I couldn't seem to get a handle on until = one day I noticed the upper tank of my dual pass oil cooler was shaped diff= erently than the other end. It was bowed outward. In this design (dual-pa= ss), there is a dam between the inlet and outlet ports. It is a tight fit,= but it isn't welded to the tank. So, when the tank bowed, it allowed most= of the oil to bypass the core, essentially rendering the oil cooler useles= s. I installed a new oil cooler and all is well. I tell this story to emphasize not to take anything for granted. Suspect e= verything, verify everything. You will find the problem hiding somewhere y= ou never would have thought of in a million years. Think like inspector Co= lumbo, "... just one more question, ma'am." Mark S. On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: Well, if any of y'all are curious about my progress, I am grounded in Phase= One. I am having oil pressure problems again. The frustration is huge. To add to= this, most of the archive searches I have made give results that prominent= ly feature my inquiries. Following my engine out over the airport in April traced to gunk in the fue= l rail, mods were made to the fuel system. During static tests the oil pres= sure would never come up to expectations. Hoping to lick the front o-ring problem that I have had SEVERAL times now, = I pulled the front cover to take a look see. The o-ring was torn. I choose to be more assertive in trying to address this problem. I modified= a brass fitting by grinding the OD to make it it cleanly fit inside the fr= ont iron (also, ground the inside diameter to keep flow as close as possibl= e to stock) and tapped the front housing to accept the fitting to screw in.= I then placed an o-ring around the fitting. I did not include the silicone= ring this time as it kept preventing the smooth mating it the iron and cov= er. While apart, I verified the woodruff key was properly installed in the oil = pump. The oil pump was replaced last time the cover was off. I also verifie= d the oil pressure relief valve. It was still in place (not surprising sinc= e it has been safety wired in following it falling out once). I buttoned everything back up being meticulous that the o-ring mod seated p= roperly. However, my oil pressure is still low. It's in the twenties (psi) = while idling. This is not too bad as Racing Beat states this is acceptable = at idle. But, when I rev it up to as much as 6000 (only long enough to veri= fy trend) it only goes into the 30's. NOT acceptable. The engine has had carb jets replace the e-shaft ball. I believe this can l= ower the oil pressure a bit. Also, there is a front oil cooler installed. T= his necessitates about a 12 foot oil line run. It is plumbed in parallel. T= his could provide a bit lower pressure too I think. I using a mixture of Royal Purple 30, 40 and 50 oil. I added what was avai= lable at the time. I have yet to check the oil pressure regulator. I specifically remember ins= talling it to torque with blue lock-tight last time I had access. I plan to isolate the engine from the coolers and filter and take readings = using a mechanical gage. Currently I have two electronic gages, one for the= RWS monitor and one for the SkyView monitor. They both read within a coupl= e of psi from each other. If not for this Achilles Heal I would very likely out of Phase One and plan= ning a trip to Osh. It has been a major distraction of energy and time. I know it could be bearings but the stationary gears and bearings were repl= aced at the last rebuild. Everything else seemed in spec. The front eccentric thermostat was replaced with the plug. The oil is flowing as the system heats up evenly. I need to see if the hose= s are hard while running, as the no-pistons site says, hard like a brick. Insight as to what may be my problem and diagnostic course is always apprec= iated. I hope I have provided enough info and not omitted relevant information. I really can't express my annoyance/anger/disgust properly. Thanks again folks. Chris Barber. Houston Velocity 13b Sent from my iPhone 5 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --_000_811533CF835549DA8D8F2E36C2F394C0texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have yet to check the pressure regulators but its on the list. I fir= st intend to check pressure with a manual gage at various locations. I also= intend to isolate the remote filter, the main cooler and the front cooler = and see what I get before I take anything apart. 

Also, I have all but decided to take the front oil cooler out of the s= ystem completely. Oil temp has mot been an issue and I think the standard o= il cooler is sufficient.  The front oil cooler was installed per plans= for a Velocity with a Lycoming to provide cabin heat. However, it greatly complicates my oil plumbing as it is in pa= rallel plumbing install to accommodate the front aviation cooler (plumbed i= n series the pressure was too high and oil seeped out of the oil filter as = the front cooler seemed to provide a restriction). Cabin heat is a minor concern most the year in Houston....= also, it's my understanding it is marginal heating at best. When I need cab= in heat, it seems to be more logical to use the coolant system than oil as = is in the car. This should be a pretty straight forward mod and may take some of the "strain" of= f the oil pump as its about a twenty + foot round trip to and from the = front cooler. 

I have not dropped the pan yet to check the pickup. However, the picku= p was properly torqued and then safety wired. The bolts are longer to accom= modate the engine mounting plate. Something may be blocking it but I'm at a= loss as to what. 

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 16:33, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris, 

OK, so much for that as a possibility.  Have you checked your pre= ssure regulators?  One may be stuck open.  Just a thought.  

Another possibility is the oil pump pickup.  The scree= n could be plugged, and/or there could be a poor seal where the pickup tube= attaches to the pump.  

Have you checked your front cover to see that it is flat an= d not warped?  

Mark


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
I did not remove the shaft. I simply blocked the mount with a plate.&n= bsp;

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 15:11, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Did you remove the OMP shaft?  If you removed it, did= you plug the oil galley?


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Chris Barber <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
Pre-mix. 

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:36, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris, 

One question... are you running the oil injection pump or did you remo= ve and go with pre-mix?  

Mark


On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:
Yeah, Mark, that's my thinking too. I think I posted to share more tha= n expecting a magic billet solution. 

Chris

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Jun 21, 2013, at 18:45, "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris, 

At this point I wouldn't take anything for granted.  I would inst= all multiple oil pressure gauges throughout the system, one right at the fr= ont cover and one at the oil filter adapter block.  It seems to me tha= t there's got to be something you've overlooked.  Suspect everything.  

I had an oil cooling problem that I couldn't seem to get a handle on u= ntil one day I noticed the upper tank of my dual pass oil cooler was shaped= differently than the other end.  It was bowed outward.  In this = design (dual-pass), there is a dam between the inlet and outlet ports.  It is a tight fit, but it isn't welded t= o the tank.  So, when the tank bowed, it allowed most of the oil to by= pass the core, essentially rendering the oil cooler useless.  I instal= led a new oil cooler and all is well.  

I tell this story to emphasize not to take anything for granted.  = ;Suspect everything, verify everything.  You will find the problem hid= ing somewhere you never would have thought of in a million years.  Thi= nk like inspector Columbo, "... just one more question, ma'am."

Mark S.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:

Well, if any of y'all are curious about my progress, I am grounded in Phase= One.

I am having oil pressure problems again. The frustration is huge. To add to= this, most of the archive searches I have made give results that prominent= ly feature my inquiries. <sigh>

Following my engine out over the airport in April traced to gunk in the fue= l rail, mods were made to the fuel system. During static tests the oil pres= sure would never come up to expectations.

Hoping to lick the front o-ring problem that I have had SEVERAL times now, = I pulled the front cover to take a look see. The o-ring was torn.

I choose to be more assertive in trying to address this problem. I modified= a brass fitting by grinding the OD to make it it cleanly fit inside the fr= ont iron (also, ground the inside diameter to keep flow as close as possibl= e to stock) and tapped the front housing to accept the fitting to screw in. I then placed an o-ring around = the fitting. I did not include the silicone ring this time as it kept preve= nting the smooth mating it the iron and cover.

While apart, I verified the woodruff key was properly installed in the oil = pump. The oil pump was replaced last time the cover was off. I also verifie= d the oil pressure relief valve. It was still in place (not surprising sinc= e it has been safety wired in following it falling out once).

I buttoned everything back up being meticulous that the o-ring mod seated p= roperly. However, my oil pressure is still low. It's in the twenties (psi) = while idling. This is not too bad as Racing Beat states this is acceptable = at idle. But, when I rev it up to as much as 6000 (only long enough to verify trend) it only goes into the 3= 0's. NOT acceptable.

The engine has had carb jets replace the e-shaft ball. I believe this can l= ower the oil pressure a bit. Also, there is a front oil cooler installed. T= his necessitates about a 12 foot oil line run. It is plumbed in parallel. T= his could provide a bit lower pressure too I think.

I  using a mixture of Royal Purple 30, 40 and 50 oil. I added what was= available at the time.

I have yet to check the oil pressure regulator. I specifically remember ins= talling it to torque with blue lock-tight last time I had access.

I plan to isolate the engine from the coolers and filter and take readings = using a mechanical gage. Currently I have two electronic gages, one for the= RWS monitor and one for the SkyView monitor. They both read within a coupl= e of psi from each other.

If not for this Achilles Heal I would very likely out of Phase One and plan= ning a trip to Osh. It has been a major distraction of energy and time.

I know it could be bearings but the stationary gears and bearings were repl= aced at the last rebuild. Everything else seemed in spec.

The front eccentric thermostat was replaced with the plug.

The oil is flowing as the system heats up evenly. I need to see if the hose= s are hard while running, as the no-pistons site says, hard like a brick.
Insight as to what may be my problem and diagnostic course is always apprec= iated.

I hope I have provided enough info and not omitted relevant information.
I really can't express my annoyance/anger/disgust properly.

Thanks again folks.

Chris Barber.
Houston
Velocity 13b

Sent from my iPhone 5<= font color=3D"#888888">
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