X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6057322 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:19:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.32; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id z1Q91k0030b6N64A3EK69K; Tue, 12 Feb 2013 02:19:06 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id zEK51k00m2xZMJ48PEK5Xu; Tue, 12 Feb 2013 02:19:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 02:19:05 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1998352548.1022032.1360635545959.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1022031_1211664086.1360635545958" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:68.40.10.159] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.13_GA_2944 (ZimbraWebClient - IE8 (Win)/6.0.13_GA_2944) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1360635546; bh=QYizgEgybrTizrMGvuLE8SvxrfO69yzCBvRRuYcH8O4=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=rYklhlWVyJaZu6CO0aUohp3qYAkCN0wSk3sWUx1aVwcMvnj9BMYwzJEkmhutVf/lc C+iKB+aniN5u89m1oy5IpHK7uzoqipeNemNTxvKpduWQou00QJOmoVxZ0diUVW3ju5 8Xc8fdIs3kO93cO8rk/eiOayrE+BlM2N64iGtiyKfcCvzGCICGeSF8/PprvhmP5tZX rsOrMkgThHmJiP4kHBhKv+xaP0haORow4CS+snSzVeg5pmQrC0bMSSka6557Z2+WP0 y3wwD7LkEXZibyV2N+LXKhGYC0KWjtmwjJn1nSvyFneBKWVSy2Ch1t7UE59ewfzSA/ 9ygZ6A9B3a9Ew== ------=_Part_1022031_1211664086.1360635545958 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, I'm not sure why but when diog. the other day on 07 Mazda 3 for a co= de P2188,=C2=A0 Snap-on scanner shows me=C2=A0amps for pre cat. AF sensor &= =C2=A0volts for post cat. O2 sensor & that is how they describe them in Mit= chel Automotive diog. text.=C2=A0 H ope this helps in some way.=C2=A0 David= R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary.=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven W. Boese" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:48:46 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress=20 Bill,=20 That may well be the case. =C2=A0I am curious as to why that sensor is call= ed out specifically as an air/fuel sensor as opposed to an O2 sensor, why t= he output is 0-5 V as opposed to the 0-1 V of a normal O2 sensor, why it ha= s 4 wires instead of 5 or more for wide band sensors, and why it costs $200= or more depending on who is selling it. =C2=A0Of course, you doesn't alway= s get what you pay for.=20 Steve=20 ________________________________________=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=20 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:26 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress=20 Steve,=20 My 2004 Renesis came with a 4 wire sensor, but I think it is just a narrow= =20 band sensor with a heater. =C2=A0I think the wires are heater and ground, a= nd=20 sensor and ground.=20 Bill B=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Steven W. Boese=20 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:53 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress=20 Ed,=20 The upstream sensor on the newer RX8's is called out as an air/fuel sensor= =20 as opposed to the downstream sensor which is specified as an O2 sensor. =C2= =A0The=20 mark on this upstream sensor is Denso 09M27-4350. =C2=A0The Denso catalog n= umber=20 is 234-9059. =C2=A0It is a four wire sensor with two of the wires apparentl= y for=20 a heater like a heated O2 sensor. =C2=A0The output has a 5V range from what= I=20 could find out. =C2=A0So far, I have not been able to find more specifics o= n this=20 sensor, but it is possible that it is capable of a more useful signal than= =20 the rapidly changing Nernstian signal of a conventional O2 sensor when the= =20 mixture is stochiometric. =C2=A0The sensor is more expensive than the unive= rsal=20 Bosch 11027 O2 sensor, but the Renesis engine I got came with this upstream= =20 air/fuel sensor still installed in the exhaust manifold. =C2=A0If others ha= ve=20 this sensor also, it is a possibility that it could be used with minimal=20 added expense. =C2=A0Someone with details of the RX8 emission system might = be=20 able to shed some light on this.=20 Steve Boese=20 RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2=20 ________________________________________=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of= =20 Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]=20 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:27 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress=20 Thanks for the suggestion, Ernest=20 However, the cost of the wideband sensor kits I found approach (or are more= =20 than) the total cost of the EFISM - so not feasible marketing wise. =C2=A0B= ut,=20 who knows - there are a bunch of them out there and I have not done an=20 exhaustive search - yet.=20 Ed=20 --------------------------------------------------=20 From: "Ernest Christley" =20 Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 8:07 PM=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress=20 >=20 > On Feb 9, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 >=20 >> Great to hear about your move to the wide band O2 sensor, Tracy.=20 >>=20 >> I looked into modifying the EFISM to do the same, but found the PID=20 >> control supposedly necessary to precisely control the heater element of= =20 >> the wide band sensor to be much more complex than simply extending the= =20 >> voltage range to interpret the WB output. =C2=A0Did you embed any PID co= ntrol=20 >> elements in the EC3 for temperature control - or just accepted any small= ?=20 >> error associated with temp variations?=20 >>=20 >> Ed=20 >=20 > Ed, look at the LS1 line of Innovate sideband sensors. =C2=A0They have th= eir=20 > own computer that controls the heater, and it just puts out a 0-5V=20 > corresponding to the F/A mixture.=20 > --=20 > Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub:=20 > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 >=20 >=20 > -----=20 > No virus found in this message.=20 > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13= =20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html=20 ------=_Part_1022031_1211664086.1360635545958 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Steve, I'= m not sure why but when diog. the other day on 07 Mazda 3 for a code P2188,=   Snap-on scanner shows me amps for pre cat. AF sensor & = ;volts for post cat. O2 sensor & that is how they describe them in Mitc= hel Automotive diog. text.  Hope this helps in some way.  David R= . Cook  RV6A Rotary.

From: "Steven W. Boese" <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: "Rotar= y motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: M= onday, February 11, 2013 10:48:46 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cri= ckets & progress

Bill,

That may well be the case.  I= am curious as to why that sensor is called out specifically as an air/fuel= sensor as opposed to an O2 sensor, why the output is 0-5 V as opposed to t= he 0-1 V of a normal O2 sensor, why it has 4 wires instead of 5 or more for= wide band sensors, and why it costs $200 or more depending on who is selli= ng it.  Of course, you doesn't always get what you pay for.

Ste= ve

________________________________________
From: Rotary motors i= n aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Bradburry [bbrad= burry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:26 AM
To: Rota= ry motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress
Steve,
My 2004 Renesis came with a 4 wire sensor, but I think it i= s just a narrow
band sensor with a heater.  I think the wires are h= eater and ground, and
sensor and ground.

Bill B

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net] On
Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Monday, February 11,= 2013 9:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Crickets & progress

Ed,

The upstream sensor on the newer = RX8's is called out as an air/fuel sensor
as opposed to the downstream s= ensor which is specified as an O2 sensor.  The
mark on this upstrea= m sensor is Denso 09M27-4350.  The Denso catalog number
is 234-9059= .  It is a four wire sensor with two of the wires apparently for
a = heater like a heated O2 sensor.  The output has a 5V range from what I=
could find out.  So far, I have not been able to find more specifi= cs on this
sensor, but it is possible that it is capable of a more usefu= l signal than
the rapidly changing Nernstian signal of a conventional O2= sensor when the
mixture is stochiometric.  The sensor is more expe= nsive than the universal
Bosch 11027 O2 sensor, but the Renesis engine I= got came with this upstream
air/fuel sensor still installed in the exha= ust manifold.  If others have
this sensor also, it is a possibility= that it could be used with minimal
added expense.  Someone with de= tails of the RX8 emission system might be
able to shed some light on thi= s.

Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2

______________= __________________________
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net] on behalf of
Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:27 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraftSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress

Thanks for the su= ggestion, Ernest

However, the cost of the wideband sensor kits I fou= nd approach (or are more
than) the total cost of the EFISM - so not feas= ible marketing wise.  But,
who knows - there are a bunch of them ou= t there and I have not done an
exhaustive search - yet.

Ed
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ernest Christ= ley" <echristley@att.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 8:07 PM<= BR>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
S= ubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets & progress

>
> On Feb = 9, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:
>
>> Great to hear a= bout your move to the wide band O2 sensor, Tracy.
>>
>> I= looked into modifying the EFISM to do the same, but found the PID
>&= gt; control supposedly necessary to precisely control the heater element of=
>> the wide band sensor to be much more complex than simply exten= ding the
>> voltage range to interpret the WB output.  Did yo= u embed any PID control
>> elements in the EC3 for temperature con= trol - or just accepted any small?
>> error associated with temp v= ariations?
>>
>> Ed
>
> Ed, look at the LS1 l= ine of Innovate sideband sensors.  They have their
> own compute= r that controls the heater, and it just puts out a 0-5V
> correspondi= ng to the F/A mixture.
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrot= ary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:8= 1/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> -----
> No virus = found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version= : 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
><= BR>>

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