X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f174.google.com ([209.85.223.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6054866 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:09:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.223.174; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-ie0-f174.google.com with SMTP id k10so6803496iea.5 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:08:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=WpM6HGFX+1FlLHNnicV3e2cXklXdVr6pAAC3/Tdq4Ew=; b=MOsHriI+BfKBxp8Ny6fbSms+pJrC7SLjdy8sMM0pdErG0mSan6fLcCqx/Sgvv9R6rT kqQBhuyj6Wl4jHJQdVOwW+rEpRbNcq1aVSh9lmI00HUh/CattRVswgd3SZWg3+jN4eEw IxsvIukSvqNXyn92/lG4/ryZhn2JGG4xN3EVniNigFFR3MPNG3tUfbct3T45uQyS487D q70ztDO7nMzIo1lRYO5ZT6baQoKkam1EUBEwUo9tLl6WLVNzMQUJo0bbF1FYBTGZDbib /hKFSXqYV50GnWlXZugWZfxvfQ2rSQMrGeur9wPY/fVidrSVERnNm27Jon25CIu4aWDL XBuw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.183.167 with SMTP id en7mr10063955igc.58.1360519733537; Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.71.195 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:08:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:08:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Crickets.... From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9340ca36d6d6504d562af1f --14dae9340ca36d6d6504d562af1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, You make some good points. As far as I know, the program to arm the pilots has never come into play. My buddy does carry his weapon on all flights, which creates a dilemma when he arrives at a location where he does not have a permit for CCW. He says they told him in the class that it is a "grey area' in terms of legality. I am obviously not advocating arming everyone on board aircraft, and would agree that attendants should probably not be carrying for the reasons you mention. I do know that Air Marshals have come in handy on a couple of occasions. As far as the pilots being locked up and unable to use their weapons, I understand your point. In most cases it will usually be better for the pilots to just remain locked up, but that decision needs to be made on a case by case basis. The weapon in the cockpit is just a tool that may or may not be useful for the task, not to be taken out for every unruly passenger. But those doors are not impenetrable. I would hate to be in a situation where a gun would have made all the difference in the outcome, but I didn't have one because you didn't see a good use for it. All that is beside the point though. I was advocating for more CCW in the general population outside aviation. I mention that program to illustrate a more comprehensive training program that might be beneficial to John Q. before getting the federal CCW permit that I propose. If every 5th patron seeing Batman in Colorado and every other teacher in CT was carrying a .40cal, after having spent a week training with it, do you think the death tolls might have been reduced? Definitely. On the other hand, if that many people were carrying guns on a regular basis might the violence appear elsewhere? The statistics don't seem to support that. Instances where a CCW holder has inappropriately used a gun, outside the home, where the use of the gun was used just because it was available (as opposed to pre-meditated) are practically non-existent. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:19 AM, wrote: > ** > Dave, > > without commenting on my opinion of firearms, carry, etc etc, > > The concept of aircraft crew carrying confuses me. The pilots are now > locked in their ivory tower basically hermetically sealed from the cabin. > In order for their fire arms to be effective they must open that door. On= ce > the cockpit door has been opened, the gun holder is faced with the questi= on > of who to shoot (or shoot at) as well as not knowing how many perps and > what kind of weaponry they may be carrying. and who may be just at the do= or > waiting to disable them and grab the weapon. Does this carrying arms real= ly > increase the safety of flight? > > It would protect the pilot from his Co or vice virtue, of course if they > successfully shot each other better hope for external conversion to remot= e > piloting. > > Perhaps it is the flight attendants that should carry-- or are they > subject to the possible forcible confiscation of their weapons. > > This seems to be a problem, much more complex and sophisticated than just > arm everybody. > > Perhaps the instantaneous injection of an anesthetic gas to incapacitate > all in the cabin after which the pilots with appropriate breathing > apparatus could do a triage and secure the aircraft.-- But then we have t= o > consider the potential possible lethal side effects. > > How effective has the Sky martial program been. I do know that the pilot > is notified when one is on board. > > Wondering..... > > Gen aviation is the way to go--- just look in the back seat prior to flig= ht > > Rich > > > In a message dated 2/10/2013 9:48:07 A.M. Central Standard Time, > wdleonard@gmail.com writes: > > Easy for you to say, you must not live in the Socialist Republic of CA :-= ) > > It's funny that so man people feel so strongly about DOing SOMEthing abou= t > to help prevent these tragedies. Great, what we should DO, at a federal > level, is make it easier and more socially acceptable to carry concealed, > or even open carry. That is the most feasible way in my mind to minimize > these events. I buddy of mine went through the federal program > for commercial pilots. He said it was very well done, about a week worth = of > training. There should be a Federal Concealed Carry program of similar > scope open to all (non felons etc) as a constitutional right to carry (pa= rt > of bearing arms, cannot be excluded by states, valid nation-wide). > > But I am preaching to the believers. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:19 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> **** >> >> This may just be a concealed, concealed carry list! :>)**** >> >> **** >> >> If you don=92t have a CWP, allow me to recommend it!**** >> >> **** >> >> Bill B**** >> >> >> > --14dae9340ca36d6d6504d562af1f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich,

You make some good points. =A0As far as I know, th= e program to arm the pilots has never come into play. =A0My buddy does carr= y his weapon on all flights, which creates a dilemma when he arrives at a l= ocation where he does not have a permit for CCW. =A0He says they told him i= n the class that it is a "grey area' in terms of legality. =A0I am= obviously not advocating arming everyone on board aircraft, and would agre= e that attendants should probably not be carrying for the reasons you menti= on. =A0I do know that Air Marshals have come in handy on a couple of occasi= ons. =A0

As far as the pilots being locked up and unable to use = their weapons, I understand your point. =A0In most cases it will usually be= better for the pilots to just remain locked up, but that decision needs to= be made on a case by case basis. =A0The weapon in the=A0cockpit=A0is just = a tool that may or may not be useful for the task, not to be taken out for = every unruly passenger. =A0But those doors are not=A0impenetrable. I would = hate to be in a situation where a gun would have made all the difference in= the outcome, but I didn't have one because you didn't see a good u= se for it.

All that is beside the point though. =A0I was advocatin= g for more CCW in the general population outside aviation. =A0I mention tha= t program to=A0illustrate=A0a more comprehensive training program that migh= t be=A0beneficial=A0to John Q. before getting the federal CCW permit that I= propose.

If every 5th patron seeing Batman in Colorado and every= other teacher in CT was carrying a .40cal, after having spent a week train= ing with it, do you think the death tolls might have been reduced? =A0Defin= itely.

On the other hand, if that many people were carrying gu= ns on a regular basis might the violence appear elsewhere? =A0The statistic= s don't seem to support that. =A0Instances where a CCW holder has inapp= ropriately used a gun, outside the home, where the use of the gun was used = just because it was available (as opposed to pre-meditated) are practically= non-existent.

--=A0
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VYhttp://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net<= br>http://RotaryRoster.net

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote"> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:19 AM, <ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote:=
Dave,
=A0
without commenting on my opinion of firearms, carry, etc=A0etc,
=A0
The concept of aircraft crew carrying confuses me. The pilots are now= =20 locked in their ivory tower basically hermetically sealed from the cabin. I= n=20 order for their fire arms to be effective they must open that door. Once th= e=20 cockpit door has been opened, the gun holder is faced with the question of = who=20 to shoot (or shoot at) as well as not knowing how many perps and what kind = of=20 weaponry they may be carrying. and who may be just at the door waiting to= =20 disable them and grab the weapon. Does this carrying arms really increase t= he=20 safety of flight?
=A0
It would protect the pilot from his Co or vice virtue, of course if th= ey=20 successfully shot each other better hope for external conversion to remote= =20 piloting.
=A0
Perhaps it is the flight attendants that should carry-- or are they su= bject=20 to the possible forcible confiscation of their weapons.
=A0
This seems to be a problem, much more complex and sophisticated than j= ust=20 arm everybody.
=A0
Perhaps the instantaneous injection of an anesthetic gas to incapacita= te=20 all in the cabin after which the pilots with appropriate breathing apparatu= s=20 could do a triage and secure the aircraft.-- But then we have to consider t= he=20 potential possible lethal side effects.
=A0
How effective has the Sky martial program been. I do know that the pil= ot is=20 notified when one is on board.
=A0
Wondering.....
=A0
Gen aviation is the way to go--- just look in the back seat prior to= =20 flight
=A0
Rich
=A0
=A0
In a message dated 2/10/2013 9:48:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 wdleonard@gmail.co= m writes:
Easy for you to say, you must not live in the Socialist Republic of = CA=20 :-)=A0

It's funny that so man people feel so strongly about DOing SOMEt= hing=20 about to help prevent these tragedies. =A0Great, what we should DO, at a= =20 federal level, is make it easier and more socially acceptable to carry=20 concealed, or even open carry. =A0That is the most feasible way in my min= d=20 to minimize these events. =A0I buddy of mine went through the federal=20 program for=A0commercial=A0pilots. He said it was very well done, about= =20 a week worth of training. =A0There should be a=20 Federal=A0Concealed=A0Carry program of similar scope open to all=20 (non=A0felons=A0etc) as a constitutional right to carry (part of bearing= =20 arms, cannot be excluded by states, valid nation-wide).

But I am preaching to the believers.

--=A0
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
h= ttp://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:19 AM, Bill Bradburr= y <bbradburry@bellsouth= .net> wrote:

This may just be a=20 concealed, concealed carry list!=A0=20 :>)

=A0

If you don=92t have a=20 CWP, allow me to recommend it!

=A0

Bill=20 B





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