X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6039308 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:36:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.32; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.71]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ue1g1k0021Y3wxoA3kboHi; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:35:48 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ukbo1k0032xZMJ48bkbo5m; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:35:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:35:48 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <545428305.585647.1359664548038.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Anatomy of a failed AW inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_585646_280622331.1359664548037" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:76.247.141.198] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.13_GA_2944 (ZimbraWebClient - [unknown] (Win)/6.0.13_GA_2944) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1359664548; bh=koPhRs7jpDo86u92mW2jUQuvSW6pgtIy0gOjj8h7Zhk=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=bZqw2mEyNy/8OsBDxStA2Lf0X6SoynBzvqZ7XQh+a3Fbkq3zf3DJ258fdVVAc3iFB 2FBu/eZx1n7TNyCN1HYEz8lYyD6NU3xLYdx3FHIxfyui9ppGHYJj7iEF5GSRyLN7Iu 6isfZp0Jhi9wKE6TV3c/XisOP1l5/tOGyRfmT0/8hDIRIm9YIayswXeE99qhxELWoB gLIObZ3thMz6nE2cw6x5E0PsjgUiTcWA53el5Mvei/bmlmCVtg2thIcbTz9MhmGBJi TkMKuWimY+ATisJ8u3RNwafuvwtbJw+yDQ1B1HoPXHtkKmWlcLQKN5xdZbGZVQpAQl McuFvJ7im9w2Q== ------=_Part_585646_280622331.1359664548037 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also have ,,, blank ,,,=C2=A0extra FAA forms just in case ,,,=C2=A0you ,,,= =C2=A0added something ,,,=C2=A0you ,,,=C2=A0were not to, FAA person was to.= =C2=A0 Don't ask,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary freezing &= sweating in MI we just can't decide? 55 deg. F. or 6 deg. F=C2=A0 ?????=C2= =A0=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:40:13 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Anatomy of a failed AW inspection=20 All, and then some,=20 =C2=A0=20 And=C2=A0indeed, they may have really been doing their job and prevented a = control disconnection or other serious problem which may have been overlook= ed and caused an incident and/or destruction of your, then aircraft, or you= r life, at least as you may know it now.--- but then there are those who do= n't even look....=C2=A0Which one=C2=A0is doing a better job.=20 =C2=A0=20 When you took your private/commercial/instrument/multi/atp etc tests the ob= ject was for the inspector=C2=A0to determine if you as a pilot were able to= , after the ground tests, perform in a manner that was safe and met the sta= ted requirements.=20 =C2=A0=20 Assuming equal skill,show up for your test =C2=A0in a=C2=A0thread bare=C2= =A0sweatshirt, cutoff jeans, 3 day old beard (especially the women), charts= and necessary equipment in disorder, you will probably have a very-very th= orough (and possibly excessive) exam. Show up like a professional organized= pilot and other than the basics required for the test you will probably br= eeze thorough it.=20 =C2=A0=20 It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that one tends to "distrust" thos= e unlike ourselves and many times, given the opportunity (and authority), w= ill discriminate against these "others"=C2=A0in various ways.=20 =C2=A0=20 If you want an easy time through the aw cert exam, Have your plane finished= . Have multiple people look at your work, and not only your friends (yes me= n/women) but the guy on the airport that is the nit-picker. Its the Nits th= at may kill you, or cause you to fail the exam.=20 =C2=A0=20 Obviously have all your paperwork assembled correct and organized. Have you= r records, be they log and/or pictures that will convey what the inspectors= are looking for. Be ready to start the engine and taxi the aircraft (altho= ugh you will=C2=A0 not be asked to taxi), Have your work area spotlessly cl= ean (impossible for me), Have all of your placards in the proper places and= affixed properly. I don't know if I would assume that if you let the inspe= ctor (FAA or DAR) "find something" that that will be in your favor.=20 =C2=A0=20 Doughnuts may not be required, but a pot of coffee may be nice, at least ju= st to have it to offer.=20 =C2=A0=20 Look at your inspection as an opportunity to "show off" your project with g= reat pride and that will transmit itself to your inspector. If you are "try= ing to just get by, that will be transmitted=C2=A0nonverbally and definitel= y to your inspectors. the inspection will probably, in that case be longer = and more intense. Remember these guys have a job to do, Superimpose on that= variability in personality and attitude and try to act accordingly.=20 =C2=A0=20 After you get your AW and Repairman cert, then get out the sweatshirt and c= utoffs.=20 =C2=A0=20 Rich=20 =C2=A0=20 In a message dated 1/31/2013 12:54:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, eanderson= @carolina.rr.com writes:=20 While I did pass my first inspection, I must admit I was really embarrassed= at the number of missing cotter pins and not tightened to spec nuts the in= spector found - and I didn't have the excuse of a short time lead.=C2=A0 Fo= rtunately all were easily and quickly fixed and the inspector was nice enou= gh to call the problems out as he went alone, so I could come along behind = him fixing them.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 By the time he had finished, so had I and I expected he would go back and c= heck that I had done what I was suppose to, but no, his view was he had poi= nted them out to me and felt that should be sufficient - sort of treated yo= u like an adult - even if a bit dim-witted one {:>)=20 =C2=A0=20 So you'll get there - and besides those inspector guys need to re-inspect s= omebody every once in a while - to show they are really doing their job {:>= )=20 =C2=A0=20 Ed=20 From: Ernest Christley=20 Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:04 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Anatomy of a failed AW inspection=20 As many of you know, I called the Greensboro FSDO and scheduled an Airworth= iness=C2=A0=20 Inspection. =C2=A0It was originally scheduled for last Friday, but got post= poned due=20 to inclement weather. =C2=A0Wednesday turned out to be a shirt-sleeve day, = and=20 perfect for an inspection inside a large, open hangar. =C2=A0When I called = for the=C2=A0=20 inspection, I was expecting to get a date a couple months out. =C2=A0The qu= ickness=20 of the schedule took me by surprise, but being the gung-ho guy I am, I went= =20 for it.=20 Three inspectors showed up.=C2=A0=C2=A0Mike Foster, who I had been working = with, and=20 seemed mostly concerned with paperwork. Tim, who did most of the hardware= =20 inspection.=C2=A0=C2=A0And Mark, who seemed to enjoy looking at airplanes t= he most.=20 Don't bother to bring donuts and coffee.=C2=A0=C2=A0Those guys were there f= or hard=20 line business.=C2=A0=C2=A0Wish I could get my $23 back from Dunkin Donuts.= =C2=A0=C2=A0Coffee=20 was crap anyway 8*)=20 They want the airplane in a state where they can write you the AW and you= =20 can immediately taxi it out to fly.=C2=A0=C2=A0Tim seemed to imply that any= =20 modifications after issuing the certificate would require contacting the=20 FSDO and flying another 40 hours.=C2=A0=C2=A0I found that a bit drastic, an= d I'm=20 still not sure how it will work out (If I add a nose wheel fairing, do I=20 have to go back into the test flight area for 40 hours?=C2=A0=C2=A0How abou= t if I=20 change my intercom?=C2=A0=C2=A0Does the simplest of issues requiring correc= tion=20 during flight testing require the clock to reset?).=C2=A0=C2=A0Tim's approa= ch was=20 reasonable, so I'm sure it will all be fine.=20 I had a LOT of cotter pins missing and nylock nuts that weren't tightened= =20 down.=C2=A0=C2=A0Most of this was due to not wanting to waste cotter pins a= nd nylock=20 nuts on parts that needed to be constantly removed during the building=20 process.=C2=A0=C2=A0I probably would have caught most of them if I'd had tw= o months=20 between when I called for the inspection appointment and when they came=20 out, which is what I was expecting.=C2=A0=C2=A0"We can be there Friday" too= k me by=20 surprise, and in retrospect I should have explained my expectation and=20 begged for more time.=C2=A0=C2=A0Then I could have gotten several pre-inspe= ctions=20 and have been ready.=C2=A0=C2=A0Recommendation: Get several pre-inspections= so that=20 you are ready.=20 The biggest deficiency, by far, was that I do not have my final propeller.= =20 My "first attempt" prop has some shop rash on it (tow bars are rough on=20 propellers when you don't remove them before cranking), and I was quite=20 open with the fact that I had no intention of flying with it.=C2=A0=C2=A0Th= at was a=20 clear violation of the "ready to fly" rule, and when I think about it a=20 moment, a clear violation of common sense.=C2=A0=C2=A0The point of the Phas= e 1 is to=20 make sure the major parts of the airplane are working properly together.=20 The point of 40hours instead of 25 for non-certified prop/engine=20 combinations is to make sure they work together in particular.=C2=A0=C2=A0H= ow can=20 you test them together, when they obviously haven't been fabricated?=C2=A0= =C2=A0Duh.=20 At the end, Mike was wanting to write the Repairman's Certificate for me.= =20 All the pictures I've taken during the build process running as a=20 slideshow on a laptop whil the inspection was going on made it clear that= =20 I had built this contraption.=C2=A0=C2=A0I could tell that Mike didn't want= to leave=20 me empty handed; but, he needed the airplane's certification date for that= =20 form, so he was blocked.=C2=A0=C2=A0I point that out to say that these guys= actually=20 WANT to give you the legal pass to go fly.=C2=A0=C2=A0My project was simply= NOT=20 ready to be called an airplane.=20 I've got a list of fixes to complete.=C2=A0=C2=A0That give me some focus to= punch=20 through and git 'er done.=C2=A0=C2=A0It won't be long now. =C2=A0This would= have only taken=20 one visit if I had:=20 1) Lined up some pre-inspections by people who had been through this before= .=20 2) Been honest with myself and asked for more time to get things complete.= =20 3) Understood beforehand that "complete" means "completed".=20 No virus found in this message.=20 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6061 - Release Date: 01/27/13= =20 ------=_Part_585646_280622331.1359664548037 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Also have ,,, blank ,,, extra FAA forms just in case ,,, you ,,, added something ,,, you ,,, were not to, FAA person was to.  Don't ask,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,David R. Cook  RV6A Rotary freezing & sweating in MI we just can't decide? 55 deg. F. or 6 deg. F  ????? 

From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:40:13 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Anatomy of a failed AW inspection

All, and then some,
 
And indeed, they may have really been doing their job and prevented a control disconnection or other serious problem which may have been overlooked and caused an incident and/or destruction of your, then aircraft, or your life, at least as you may know it now.--- but then there are those who don't even look.... Which one is doing a better job.
 
When you took your private/commercial/instrument/multi/atp etc tests the object was for the inspector to determine if you as a pilot were able to, after the ground tests, perform in a manner that was safe and met the stated requirements.
 
Assuming equal skill,show up for your test  in a thread bare sweatshirt, cutoff jeans, 3 day old beard (especially the women), charts and necessary equipment in disorder, you will probably have a very-very thorough (and possibly excessive) exam. Show up like a professional organized pilot and other than the basics required for the test you will probably breeze thorough it.
 
It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that one tends to "distrust" those unlike ourselves and many times, given the opportunity (and authority), will discriminate against these "others" in various ways.
 
If you want an easy time through the aw cert exam, Have your plane finished. Have multiple people look at your work, and not only your friends (yes men/women) but the guy on the airport that is the nit-picker. Its the Nits that may kill you, or cause you to fail the exam.
 
Obviously have all your paperwork assembled correct and organized. Have your records, be they log and/or pictures that will convey what the inspectors are looking for. Be ready to start the engine and taxi the aircraft (although you will  not be asked to taxi), Have your work area spotlessly clean (impossible for me), Have all of your placards in the proper places and affixed properly. I don't know if I would assume that if you let the inspector (FAA or DAR) "find something" that that will be in your favor.
 
Doughnuts may not be required, but a pot of coffee may be nice, at least just to have it to offer.
 
Look at your inspection as an opportunity to "show off" your project with great pride and that will transmit itself to your inspector. If you are "trying to just get by, that will be transmitted nonverbally and definitely to your inspectors. the inspection will probably, in that case be longer and more intense. Remember these guys have a job to do, Superimpose on that variability in personality and attitude and try to act accordingly.
 
After you get your AW and Repairman cert, then get out the sweatshirt and cutoffs.
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 1/31/2013 12:54:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:
While I did pass my first inspection, I must admit I was really embarrassed at the number of missing cotter pins and not tightened to spec nuts the inspector found - and I didn't have the excuse of a short time lead.  Fortunately all were easily and quickly fixed and the inspector was nice enough to call the problems out as he went alone, so I could come along behind him fixing them. 
 
By the time he had finished, so had I and I expected he would go back and check that I had done what I was suppose to, but no, his view was he had pointed them out to me and felt that should be sufficient - sort of treated you like an adult - even if a bit dim-witted one {:>)
 
So you'll get there - and besides those inspector guys need to re-inspect somebody every once in a while - to show they are really doing their job {:>)
 
Ed

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Anatomy of a failed AW inspection

As many of you know, I called the Greensboro FSDO and scheduled an Airworthiness 
Inspection.  It was originally scheduled for last Friday, but got postponed due
to inclement weather.  Wednesday turned out to be a shirt-sleeve day, and
perfect for an inspection inside a large, open hangar.  When I called for the 
inspection, I was expecting to get a date a couple months out.  The quickness
of the schedule took me by surprise, but being the gung-ho guy I am, I went
for it.

Three inspectors showed up.  Mike Foster, who I had been working with, and
seemed mostly concerned with paperwork. Tim, who did most of the hardware
inspection.  And Mark, who seemed to enjoy looking at airplanes the most.
Don't bother to bring donuts and coffee.  Those guys were there for hard
line business.  Wish I could get my $23 back from Dunkin Donuts.  Coffee
was crap anyway 8*)

They want the airplane in a state where they can write you the AW and you
can immediately taxi it out to fly.  Tim seemed to imply that any
modifications after issuing the certificate would require contacting the
FSDO and flying another 40 hours.  I found that a bit drastic, and I'm
still not sure how it will work out (If I add a nose wheel fairing, do I
have to go back into the test flight area for 40 hours?  How about if I
change my intercom?  Does the simplest of issues requiring correction
during flight testing require the clock to reset?).  Tim's approach was
reasonable, so I'm sure it will all be fine.

I had a LOT of cotter pins missing and nylock nuts that weren't tightened
down.  Most of this was due to not wanting to waste cotter pins and nylock
nuts on parts that needed to be constantly removed during the building
process.  I probably would have caught most of them if I'd had two months
between when I called for the inspection appointment and when they came
out, which is what I was expecting.  "We can be there Friday" took me by
surprise, and in retrospect I should have explained my expectation and
begged for more time.  Then I could have gotten several pre-inspections
and have been ready.  Recommendation: Get several pre-inspections so that
you are ready.

The biggest deficiency, by far, was that I do not have my final propeller.
My "first attempt" prop has some shop rash on it (tow bars are rough on
propellers when you don't remove them before cranking), and I was quite
open with the fact that I had no intention of flying with it.  That was a
clear violation of the "ready to fly" rule, and when I think about it a
moment, a clear violation of common sense.  The point of the Phase 1 is to
make sure the major parts of the airplane are working properly together.
The point of 40hours instead of 25 for non-certified prop/engine
combinations is to make sure they work together in particular.  How can
you test them together, when they obviously haven't been fabricated?  Duh.

At the end, Mike was wanting to write the Repairman's Certificate for me.
All the pictures I've taken during the build process running as a
slideshow on a laptop whil the inspection was going on made it clear that
I had built this contraption.  I could tell that Mike didn't want to leave
me empty handed; but, he needed the airplane's certification date for that
form, so he was blocked.  I point that out to say that these guys actually
WANT to give you the legal pass to go fly.  My project was simply NOT
ready to be called an airplane.

I've got a list of fixes to complete.  That give me some focus to punch
through and git 'er done.  It won't be long now.  This would have only taken
one visit if I had:
1) Lined up some pre-inspections by people who had been through this before.
2) Been honest with myself and asked for more time to get things complete.
3) Understood beforehand that "complete" means "completed".

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6061 - Release Date: 01/27/13

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