X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6039194 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:40:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.96; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.76]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id D93FB1C00010A for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-dsd004a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dsd004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.253.141]) by mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 93300E000082 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:40:13 -0500 (EST) From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <9c00.75f328ca.3e3c229d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:40:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Anatomy of a failed AW inspection To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9c00.75f328ca.3e3c229d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 56 X-Originating-IP: [24.14.64.174] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1359661213; bh=vRFzqdM1uYz1nzy1Rtpzoa/F676iW/4KeM72S4HqVVM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nLhUrqoDLeItcsr4iemNPQEdzWX/GrVLbeOjCpHeox+kCQNyb9xyk2ZlqnAD1djvB rvfiL06Mpdt+DeAfkvpWawh0VNqRnG5LwunFniUn6rjb7ehaAreOKzM0FgGLOnCszu FN5/HnOvxugkn7tRSobkAtQhaJJH/dChs+m0ZelE= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:462759136:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294c510ac89d5077 --part1_9c00.75f328ca.3e3c229d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, and then some, And indeed, they may have really been doing their job and prevented a control disconnection or other serious problem which may have been overlooked and caused an incident and/or destruction of your, then aircraft, or your life, at least as you may know it now.--- but then there are those who don't even look.... Which one is doing a better job. When you took your private/commercial/instrument/multi/atp etc tests the object was for the inspector to determine if you as a pilot were able to, after the ground tests, perform in a manner that was safe and met the stated requirements. Assuming equal skill,show up for your test in a thread bare sweatshirt, cutoff jeans, 3 day old beard (especially the women), charts and necessary equipment in disorder, you will probably have a very-very thorough (and possibly excessive) exam. Show up like a professional organized pilot and other than the basics required for the test you will probably breeze thorough it. It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that one tends to "distrust" those unlike ourselves and many times, given the opportunity (and authority), will discriminate against these "others" in various ways. If you want an easy time through the aw cert exam, Have your plane finished. Have multiple people look at your work, and not only your friends (yes men/women) but the guy on the airport that is the nit-picker. Its the Nits that may kill you, or cause you to fail the exam. Obviously have all your paperwork assembled correct and organized. Have your records, be they log and/or pictures that will convey what the inspectors are looking for. Be ready to start the engine and taxi the aircraft (although you will not be asked to taxi), Have your work area spotlessly clean (impossible for me), Have all of your placards in the proper places and affixed properly. I don't know if I would assume that if you let the inspector (FAA or DAR) "find something" that that will be in your favor. Doughnuts may not be required, but a pot of coffee may be nice, at least just to have it to offer. Look at your inspection as an opportunity to "show off" your project with great pride and that will transmit itself to your inspector. If you are "trying to just get by, that will be transmitted nonverbally and definitely to your inspectors. the inspection will probably, in that case be longer and more intense. Remember these guys have a job to do, Superimpose on that variability in personality and attitude and try to act accordingly. After you get your AW and Repairman cert, then get out the sweatshirt and cutoffs. Rich In a message dated 1/31/2013 12:54:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: While I did pass my first inspection, I must admit I was really embarrassed at the number of missing cotter pins and not tightened to spec nuts the inspector found - and I didn't have the excuse of a short time lead. Fortunately all were easily and quickly fixed and the inspector was nice enough to call the problems out as he went alone, so I could come along behind him fixing them. By the time he had finished, so had I and I expected he would go back and check that I had done what I was suppose to, but no, his view was he had pointed them out to me and felt that should be sufficient - sort of treated you like an adult - even if a bit dim-witted one {:>) So you'll get there - and besides those inspector guys need to re-inspect somebody every once in a while - to show they are really doing their job {:>) Ed From: _Ernest Christley_ (mailto:echristley@att.net) Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:04 PM To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Subject: [FlyRotary] Anatomy of a failed AW inspection As many of you know, I called the Greensboro FSDO and scheduled an Airworthiness Inspection. It was originally scheduled for last Friday, but got postponed due to inclement weather. Wednesday turned out to be a shirt-sleeve day, and perfect for an inspection inside a large, open hangar. When I called for the inspection, I was expecting to get a date a couple months out. The quickness of the schedule took me by surprise, but being the gung-ho guy I am, I went for it. Three inspectors showed up. Mike Foster, who I had been working with, and seemed mostly concerned with paperwork. Tim, who did most of the hardware inspection. And Mark, who seemed to enjoy looking at airplanes the most. Don't bother to bring donuts and coffee. Those guys were there for hard line business. Wish I could get my $23 back from Dunkin Donuts. Coffee was crap anyway 8*) They want the airplane in a state where they can write you the AW and you can immediately taxi it out to fly. Tim seemed to imply that any modifications after issuing the certificate would require contacting the FSDO and flying another 40 hours. I found that a bit drastic, and I'm still not sure how it will work out (If I add a nose wheel fairing, do I have to go back into the test flight area for 40 hours? How about if I change my intercom? Does the simplest of issues requiring correction during flight testing require the clock to reset?). Tim's approach was reasonable, so I'm sure it will all be fine. I had a LOT of cotter pins missing and nylock nuts that weren't tightened down. Most of this was due to not wanting to waste cotter pins and nylock nuts on parts that needed to be constantly removed during the building process. I probably would have caught most of them if I'd had two months between when I called for the inspection appointment and when they came out, which is what I was expecting. "We can be there Friday" took me by surprise, and in retrospect I should have explained my expectation and begged for more time. Then I could have gotten several pre-inspections and have been ready. Recommendation: Get several pre-inspections so that you are ready. The biggest deficiency, by far, was that I do not have my final propeller. My "first attempt" prop has some shop rash on it (tow bars are rough on propellers when you don't remove them before cranking), and I was quite open with the fact that I had no intention of flying with it. That was a clear violation of the "ready to fly" rule, and when I think about it a moment, a clear violation of common sense. The point of the Phase 1 is to make sure the major parts of the airplane are working properly together. The point of 40hours instead of 25 for non-certified prop/engine combinations is to make sure they work together in particular. How can you test them together, when they obviously haven't been fabricated? Duh. At the end, Mike was wanting to write the Repairman's Certificate for me. All the pictures I've taken during the build process running as a slideshow on a laptop whil the inspection was going on made it clear that I had built this contraption. I could tell that Mike didn't want to leave me empty handed; but, he needed the airplane's certification date for that form, so he was blocked. I point that out to say that these guys actually WANT to give you the legal pass to go fly. My project was simply NOT ready to be called an airplane. I've got a list of fixes to complete. That give me some focus to punch through and git 'er done. It won't be long now. This would have only taken one visit if I had: 1) Lined up some pre-inspections by people who had been through this before. 2) Been honest with myself and asked for more time to get things complete. 3) Understood beforehand that "complete" means "completed". No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - _www.avg.com_ (http://www.avg.com/) Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6061 - Release Date: 01/27/13 --part1_9c00.75f328ca.3e3c229d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All, and then some,
 
And indeed, they may have really been doing their job and prevent= ed a=20 control disconnection or other serious problem which may have been overlook= ed=20 and caused an incident and/or destruction of your, then aircraft, or your l= ife,=20 at least as you may know it now.--- but then there are those who don't even= =20 look.... Which one is doing a better job.
 
When you took your private/commercial/instrument/multi/atp etc tests t= he=20 object was for the inspector to determine if you as a pilot were able = to,=20 after the ground tests, perform in a manner that was safe and met the state= d=20 requirements.
 
Assuming equal skill,show up for your test  in a thread=20 bare sweatshirt, cutoff jeans, 3 day old beard (especially the women),= =20 charts and necessary equipment in disorder, you will probably have a very-v= ery=20 thorough (and possibly excessive) exam. Show up like a professional organiz= ed=20 pilot and other than the basics required for the test you will probably bre= eze=20 thorough it.
 
It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that one tends to "distrust"= =20 those unlike ourselves and many times, given the opportunity (and authority= ),=20 will discriminate against these "others" in various ways.
 
If you want an easy time through the aw cert exam, Have your plane=20 finished. Have multiple people look at your work, and not only your friends= (yes=20 men/women) but the guy on the airport that is the nit-picker. Its the Nits = that=20 may kill you, or cause you to fail the exam.
 
Obviously have all your paperwork assembled correct and organized. Hav= e=20 your records, be they log and/or pictures that will convey what the inspect= ors=20 are looking for. Be ready to start the engine and taxi the aircraft (althou= gh=20 you will  not be asked to taxi), Have your work area spotlessly clean= =20 (impossible for me), Have all of your placards in the proper places and aff= ixed=20 properly. I don't know if I would assume that if you let the inspector (FAA= or=20 DAR) "find something" that that will be in your favor.
 
Doughnuts may not be required, but a pot of coffee may be nice, at lea= st=20 just to have it to offer.
 
Look at your inspection as an opportunity to "show off" your project w= ith=20 great pride and that will transmit itself to your inspector. If you are "tr= ying=20 to just get by, that will be transmitted nonverbally and definitely to= your=20 inspectors. the inspection will probably, in that case be longer and more= =20 intense. Remember these guys have a job to do, Superimpose on that variabil= ity=20 in personality and attitude and try to act accordingly.
 
After you get your AW and Repairman cert, then get out the sweatshirt = and=20 cutoffs.
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 1/31/2013 12:54:59 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:
=
While I did pass my first inspection, I must admi= t I was=20 really embarrassed at the number of missing cotter pins and not tightened= to=20 spec nuts the inspector found - and I didn't have the excuse of a short t= ime=20 lead.  Fortunately all were easily and quickly fixed and the inspect= or=20 was nice enough to call the problems out as he went alone, so I could com= e=20 along behind him fixing them. 
 
By the time he had finished, so had I and I expec= ted he=20 would go back and check that I had done what I was suppose to, but no, hi= s=20 view was he had pointed them out to me and felt that should be sufficient= -=20 sort of treated you like an adult - even if a bit dim-witted one=20 {:>)
 
So you'll get there - and besides those inspector= guys=20 need to re-inspect somebody every once in a while - to show they are real= ly=20 doing their job {:>)
 
Ed

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Anatomy of a failed AW=20 inspection

As many of you know, I called the=20 Greensboro FSDO and scheduled an Airworthiness 
Inspection.  It was originally= =20 scheduled for last Friday, but got postponed due
to inclement weather.  Wednesda= y=20 turned out to be a shirt-sleeve day, and
perfect for an inspection inside a l= arge,=20 open hangar.  When I called for the 
inspection, I was expecting to get a= date a=20 couple months out.  The quickness
of the schedule took me by surprise,= but=20 being the gung-ho guy I am, I went
for it.

Three inspectors showed up. &nb= sp;Mike=20 Foster, who I had been working with, and
seemed mostly concerned with paperwo= rk.=20 Tim, who did most of the hardware
inspection.  And Mark, who= seemed=20 to enjoy looking at airplanes the most.
Don't bother to bring donuts and=20 coffee.  Those guys were there for hard
line business.  Wish I cou= ld get=20 my $23 back from Dunkin Donuts.  Coffee
was crap anyway 8*)

They want the airplane in a state wh= ere=20 they can write you the AW and you
can immediately taxi it out to=20 fly.  Tim seemed to imply that any
modifications after issuing the cert= ificate=20 would require contacting the
FSDO and flying another 40=20 hours.  I found that a bit drastic, and I'm
still not sure how it will work out = (If I=20 add a nose wheel fairing, do I
have to go back into the test flight= area=20 for 40 hours?  How about if I
change my intercom?  Does = the=20 simplest of issues requiring correction
during flight testing require the cl= ock to=20 reset?).  Tim's approach was
reasonable, so I'm sure it will all = be=20 fine.

I had a LOT of cotter pins missing a= nd=20 nylock nuts that weren't tightened
down.  Most of this was du= e to=20 not wanting to waste cotter pins and nylock
nuts on parts that needed to be cons= tantly=20 removed during the building
process.  I probably would= have=20 caught most of them if I'd had two months
between when I called for the inspec= tion=20 appointment and when they came
out, which is what I was=20 expecting.  "We can be there Friday" took me by
surprise, and in retrospect I should= have=20 explained my expectation and
begged for more time.  The= n I=20 could have gotten several pre-inspections
and have been=20 ready.  Recommendation: Get several pre-inspections so that
you are ready.

The biggest deficiency, by far, was = that I=20 do not have my final propeller.
My "first attempt" prop has some sho= p rash=20 on it (tow bars are rough on
propellers when you don't remove the= m=20 before cranking), and I was quite
open with the fact that I had no int= ention=20 of flying with it.  That was a
clear violation of the "ready to fly= " rule,=20 and when I think about it a
moment, a clear violation of common= =20 sense.  The point of the Phase 1 is to
make sure the major parts of the air= plane=20 are working properly together.
The point of 40hours instead of 25 f= or=20 non-certified prop/engine
combinations is to make sure they wo= rk=20 together in particular.  How can
you test them together, when they ob= viously=20 haven't been fabricated?  Duh.

At the end, Mike was wanting to writ= e the=20 Repairman's Certificate for me.
All the pictures I've taken during t= he=20 build process running as a
slideshow on a laptop whil the inspe= ction=20 was going on made it clear that
I had built this contraption. &= nbsp;I=20 could tell that Mike didn't want to leave
me empty handed; but, he needed the= =20 airplane's certification date for that
form, so he was blocked.  = I point=20 that out to say that these guys actually
WANT to give you the legal pass to g= o=20 fly.  My project was simply NOT
ready to be called an airplane.

I've got a list of fixes to=20 complete.  That give me some focus to punch
through and git 'er done.  = ;It=20 won't be long now.  This would have only taken
one visit if I had:
1) Lined up some pre-inspections by = people=20 who had been through this before.
2) Been honest with myself and asked= for=20 more time to get things complete.
3) Understood beforehand that "compl= ete"=20 means "completed".

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Vi= rus=20 Database: 2639/6061 - Release Date:=20 01/27/13

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