Mark and Richard,

 

Thanks for the input.  Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)?  Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to move exactly the same or is there more to it?  What about the Holley 500 CFM carb someone makes a mixture block for it?  Any input on intake design for a PPort (2rotor)?

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ
On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe,  

Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need 3 @ $395/ea.  You would need to be able to sync them which might be a bit risky considering the big fan nearby.  Of course this isn't necessary if only using one.  

>

Mark
>
>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
>

Mark,

 

The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link

 

http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

 

> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joe, 

> >

If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable for assembly.  This would greatly reduce the leak factor.

> >

If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction interface.  Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide.  I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the rotors at idle.  Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable to the slide.  

> >

On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior is during WOT operations.  Anything less and the slide creates a lot of turbulence in the intake runners.  That's a non-scientific personal observation of mine, FWIW.

> >

Mark

> >
> >

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> >

Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built by Mazda Custom Parts Inc.  by Doc Custer.  I have my injectors near the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it looks like a redesign is in order.  I emailed the company that makes V carb or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired about using 2 of those for a P Port.  No one has used one on a rotary that they know of.  I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lot so redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now.  I have got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port.  I think you have the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use.  I was thinking of a gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more provide room for the teflon.  I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor?  Appreciate any input.

 

 Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Joe, 

> > >

It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor.  It used a solid 3/8" teflon slider.  When I initially built it I didn't allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tighter the slider was in the cavity.  He now recommends thin sheets of teflon bonded to an aluminum slider.  I didn't try that, so I don't know if it corrected the problem.  I modified my slide throttle by opening the tolerances up until it would work when hot.  

> > >

But then it also leaked.  Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle before the slide.  If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust.  Not a good situation.  This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle. 

> > >

Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual rotors.  So, precision is the word when drilling.  My pieces were built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer plates.  I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the welds.  But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops.  I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the results.

> > >

And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the throttle cable.  The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out.  Mine never did, but the thought was always in the back of my mind.  It was also very difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation and removal of the slide throttle.  I feel that part of the design could use a bit more engineering to address this issue.

> > >

Those are some of the issues that I've identified.  I'm sure that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay.  So, I bought them and ended up using them.  They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which makes them smooth as silk.  They have a bung located downstream of the butterflies for the primary injectors.  So, no more fuel puddling.  The only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth.  But I was able to work around that.  If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports.  These fit the bill nicely.  And it idles much better now.  

> > >

Mark

> > >

P.S.  Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes installed on the fuel injectors.  Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers.  Once I added those the idle improved a lot.

> > >
> > >

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> > >

Mark,

 

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source?  Can you expand on problems with the slide throttle?  How thick was the slide?  Thanks for any help

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

 

13b P Port

> > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Doug,

> > > >

That's true.  It is almost like an entirely different engine, especially the MAP readings.  I guess you could compare it to installing a radical cam in your family driver.  It would drastically alter the driving characteristics.  Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port engines.  It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm.  Hopefully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition.   

> > > >

It also required a whole new intake.  I tried the slide throttle, but there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies.  It has worked out great.  It especially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the primary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates.  I had some fuel pooling issues with having them located upstream.  The snowmobile tb's also operate much smoother than the slide throttle.  At idle, vacuum sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force, making it difficult to work the throttle.
> > > >
> > > > And... it now burns more fuel than before.  DUH!  I could throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that???

> > > >

Mark S.

> > > >

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, <DLOMHEIM@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >

Mark Steitle wrote:

 

>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end over the original side-port 20b motor".

 

That is outstanding Mark!  I'd almost bet that your PP modification was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. a turbo / supercharger add on?  Probably wouldn't seem like it as you were going through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :)

 

Doug 

 

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>