X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.220.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5903649 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:08:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fb1so3410482pad.25 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=CVmpRObeX6tKY6DTUfn4l911gfuXzhB3X9kmrCQ16QE=; b=bjrv6+U0R2AXOo++eOaVn5r9XWtYvfa3aBYI6pK33s+ReW4n0/2ryDLjZwvJB4VCoU rQMi8eF86uRGUM7VwAI97D0Zb3hyk6cJRLnIZEWlVld3E6iE6SIhrnV7D2OwPYcGW2gp 1Js4E8wOBd8jFAdF1hTD2fMbrZnYRAKW0gxu8TiLrdw10Lfg6xdayNtj4mFtFMQglmRt l6v8WRlIrHJrxklYBztx8lW89nfb0rGXeV45/PHIwSaL+vyKJcVnBBogwCpj2WgdK9g8 0gOU8BBwCgiEjSfKndqm2lSPPwCdCwXoaul8Y5dysidIedqSAnvW8CbBTUTzuEHzLZSz 2jTw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.143.129 with SMTP id se1mr32772705pbb.67.1353884863537; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.67.4.132 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e4c665ba16204cf59e268 --047d7b2e4c665ba16204cf59e268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Joe, I was looking at a beautiful little Pulsar today, running a Rotax 582. It uses two Bing carbs, probably from a dirt bike of some sort. If it works for them, it could probably be made to work for a rotary. Might be worth looking into. Mark On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:18 AM, wrote: > Mark and Richard, > > > > Thanks for the input. Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)? Does > synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to move > exactly the same or is there more to it? What about the Holley 500 CFM > carb someone makes a mixture block for it? Any input on intake design for > a PPort (2rotor)? > > > > Joe Berki > > Limo EZ > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle > wrote: > > Joe, > Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need 3 @ > $395/ea. You would need to be able to sync them which might be a bit risky > considering the big fan nearby. Of course this isn't necessary if only > using one. > > > > Mark > > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, wrote: > > >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link >> >> >> >> http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html >> >> >> >> Joe Berki >> >> Limo EZ >> >> 13b P Port >> >> >> >> >> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle < >> msteitle@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > Joe, >> >> > > >> If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider >> welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable >> for assembly. This would greatly reduce the leak factor. >> >> > > >> If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to >> incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction >> interface. Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide. >> I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the rotors >> at idle. Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable to the >> slide. >> >> > > >> On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior is >> during WOT operations. Anything less and the slide creates a lot of >> turbulence in the intake runners. That's a non-scientific personal >> observation of mine, FWIW. >> >> > > >> Mark >> >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, >> > wrote: >> > > >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the reply. I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built by >>> Mazda Custom Parts Inc. by Doc Custer. I have my injectors near the >>> bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it looks >>> like a redesign is in order. I emailed the company that makes V carb or >>> Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired about >>> using 2 of those for a P Port. No one has used one on a rotary that they >>> know of. I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lot so >>> redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now. I have got >>> zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port. I think you have >>> the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use. I was thinking of a >>> gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more provide room >>> for the teflon. I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands >>> and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor? Appreciate >>> any input. >>> >>> >>> >>> Joe Berki >>> >>> Limo EZ >>> >>> 13b P Port >>> >>> > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle < >>> msteitle@gmail.com > wrote: >>> > > > Joe, >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. It used a >>> solid 3/8" teflon slider. When I initially built it I didn't allow for >>> expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tighter the >>> slider was in the cavity. He now recommends thin sheets of teflon bonded >>> to an aluminum slider. I didn't try that, so I don't know if it corrected >>> the problem. I modified my slide throttle by opening the tolerances up >>> until it would work when hot. >>> >>> > > > >>> But then it also leaked. Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle >>> before the slide. If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and >>> spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. Not a good situation. This >>> could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle. >>> >>> > > > >>> Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual >>> rotors. So, precision is the word when drilling. My pieces were built >>> using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer >>> plates. I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the >>> welds. But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. I tried >>> fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the results. >>> >>> > > > >>> And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the >>> throttle cable. The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or >>> setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out. Mine never did, but >>> the thought was always in the back of my mind. It was also very difficult >>> to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation >>> and removal of the slide throttle. I feel that part of the design could >>> use a bit more engineering to address this issue. >>> >>> > > > >>> Those are some of the issues that I've identified. I'm sure that most >>> could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel throttle >>> bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. So, I bought them and ended up using >>> them. They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which makes them >>> smooth as silk. They have a bung located downstream of the butterflies for >>> the primary injectors. So, no more fuel puddling. The only real problem >>> with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. But I was able to >>> work around that. If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one >>> larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the >>> butterflies near the ports. These fit the bill nicely. And it idles much >>> better now. >>> >>> > > > >>> Mark >>> >>> > > > >>> P.S. Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes installed >>> on the fuel injectors. Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor >>> engines running the EC-2 controllers. Once I added those the idle improved >>> a lot. >>> >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, >>> > wrote: >>> > > > >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? Can >>>> you expand on problems with the slide throttle? How thick was the slide? >>>> Thanks for any help >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joe Berki >>>> >>>> Limo EZ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 13b P Port >>>> >>>> >>>> > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle < >>>> msteitle@gmail.com > wrote: >>>> > > > > Doug, >>>> >>>> > > > > >>>> That's true. It is almost like an entirely different engine, >>>> especially the MAP readings. I guess you could compare it to installing a >>>> radical cam in your family driver. It would drastically alter the driving >>>> characteristics. Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port >>>> engines. It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. Hopefully, >>>> the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. >>>> >>>> > > > > >>>> It also required a whole new intake. I tried the slide throttle, but >>>> there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using three >>>> 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. It has worked out great. It especially >>>> improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the primary >>>> injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. I had some fuel >>>> pooling issues with having them located upstream. The snowmobile tb's also >>>> operate much smoother than the slide throttle. At idle, vacuum sucks the >>>> slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force, making it >>>> difficult to work the throttle. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > And... it now burns more fuel than before. DUH! I could >>>> throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that??? >>>> >>>> > > > > >>>> Mark S. >>>> >>>> > > > > >>>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > > > >>>>> >>>>> ** >>>>> Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end over >>>>> the original side-port 20b motor". >>>>> >>>>> That is outstanding Mark! I'd almost bet that your PP modification >>>>> was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. a turbo / >>>>> supercharger add on? Probably wouldn't seem like it as you were going >>>>> through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :) >>>>> >>>>> Doug >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > >>> >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > --047d7b2e4c665ba16204cf59e268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe,=A0

I was looking at a beautiful little Pulsar today= , running a Rotax 582. =A0It uses two Bing carbs, probably from a dirt bike= of some sort. =A0If it works for them, it could probably be made to work f= or a rotary. =A0Might be worth looking into.

Mark

On Sun, Nov 25, = 2012 at 10:18 AM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:<= br>

Mark and Richard,

=A0

Thanks for the input.=A0 Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)?=A0= Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to move = exactly the same or is there more to it?=A0 What about the Holley 500 CFM c= arb someone makes a mixture block for it?=A0 Any input on intake design for= a PPort (2rotor)?

=A0

Joe Berki

Limo EZ
On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> Joe, =A0

Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need= 3 @ $395/ea. =A0You would need to be able to sync them which might be a bi= t risky considering the big fan nearby. =A0Of course this isn't necessa= ry if only using one. =A0=20

>
Mark
>
>=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, <jskm= berki@windstream.net> wrote:
>=20

Mark,

=A0

The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link

=A0

http://www.aeroc= onversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html

=A0

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

=A0


> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> > Joe,=A0


> >
If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider= welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable= for assembly. =A0This would greatly reduce the leak factor.

> >
If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to incor= porate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction inter= face. =A0Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide. =A0= I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the rotors a= t idle. =A0Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable to the sli= de. =A0

> >
On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior i= s during WOT operations. =A0Anything less and the slide creates a lot of tu= rbulence in the intake runners. =A0That's a non-scientific personal obs= ervation of mine, FWIW.

> >
Mark

> >
> >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, <js= kmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> >=20

Mark,

=A0

Thanks for the reply.=A0 I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle buil= t by Mazda Custom Parts Inc.=A0 by Doc Custer.=A0 I have my injectors near = the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it lo= oks like a redesign is in order.=A0 I emailed the company that makes V carb= or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired abo= ut using 2 of those for a P Port.=A0 No one has used one on a rotary that t= hey know of.=A0 I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lo= t so redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now.=A0 I ha= ve got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port.=A0 I think = you have the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use.=A0 I was th= inking of a gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more = provide room for the teflon.=A0=A0I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 = for test stands and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor= ?=A0 Appreciate any input.

=A0

=A0Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port


> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle &l= t;msteitle@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> > > Joe,=A0


> > >
It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. =A0It used= a solid 3/8" teflon slider. =A0When I initially built it I didn't= allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the = tighter the slider was in the cavity. =A0He now recommends thin sheets of t= eflon bonded to an aluminum slider. =A0I didn't try that, so I don'= t know if it corrected the problem. =A0I modified my slide throttle by open= ing the tolerances up until it would work when hot. =A0

> > >
But then it also leaked. =A0Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle= before the slide. =A0If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates= and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. =A0Not a good situation= . =A0This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough= idle.=A0

> > >
Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual r= otors. =A0So, precision is the word when drilling. =A0My pieces were built = using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer pla= tes. =A0I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up = the welds. =A0But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. =A0= I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the= results.

> > >
And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the t= hrottle cable. =A0The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or set= screw to keep the throttle cable from backing out. =A0Mine never did, but t= he thought was always in the back of my mind. =A0It was also very difficult= to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation = and removal of the slide throttle. =A0I feel that part of the design could = use a bit more engineering to address this issue.

> > >
Those are some of the issues that I've identified. =A0I'm sure= that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barre= l throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. =A0So, I bought them and ended = up using them. =A0They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which mak= es them smooth as silk. =A0They have a bung located downstream of the butte= rflies for the primary injectors. =A0So, no more fuel puddling. =A0The only= real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. =A0B= ut I was able to work around that. =A0If it wasn't a p-port engine I co= uld have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engin= es run better with the butterflies near the ports. =A0These fit the bill ni= cely. =A0And it idles much better now. =A0

> > >
Mark

> > >
P.S. =A0Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes i= nstalled on the fuel injectors. =A0Best I can tell, this is a problem for t= he 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers. =A0Once I added those the = idle improved a lot.

> > >
> > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> > >=20

Mark,

=A0

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source?=A0 Ca= n you expand on problems with the slide throttle?=A0 How thick was the slid= e?=A0 Thanks for any help

=A0

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

=A0

13b P Port


> > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle = <msteitle@= gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Doug,


> > > >
That's true. =A0It is almost like an entirely different engine, es= pecially the MAP readings. =A0I guess you could compare it to installing a = radical cam in your family driver. =A0It would drastically alter the drivin= g characteristics. =A0Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port= engines. =A0It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. =A0Hopef= ully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. =A0=A0= =20

> > > >
It also required a whole new intake. =A0I tried the slide throttle, bu= t there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using= three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. =A0It has worked out great. =A0It e= specially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the pri= mary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. =A0I had some fue= l pooling issues with having them located upstream. =A0The snowmobile tb= 9;s also operate much smoother than the slide throttle. =A0At idle, vacuum = sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force,= making it difficult to work the throttle.
> > > >
> > > > And... it now burns more fuel t= han before. =A0DUH! =A0I could throttle back and fly slower, but who wants = to do that???

> > > >
Mark S.

> > > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, <DLOMHE= IM@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >=20
Mark Steitle wrote:
=A0
>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top e= nd over the original side-port 20b motor".
=A0
That is outstanding Mark!=A0=A0I'd almost bet that your PP modific= ation was one of the=A0"easiest"=A0ways to gain those=A0hp number= s vs. a turbo / supercharger add on?=A0 Probably=A0wouldn't seem like i= t as=A0you were going through the=A0"tweaking" phase, etc... :)
=A0
Doug=A0
=A0

> > > >

> > >

> > >=

> >

> >

>

>

--047d7b2e4c665ba16204cf59e268--