X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from pacmmta52-web.windstream.net ([162.39.147.132] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTP id 5903516 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:13:36 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=162.39.147.132; envelope-from=jskmberki@windstream.net Return-Path: X-WS-COS: WSOB806 X-Cloudmark-Category: Undefined:Undefined X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=qLnK0TQP0Sjj11iwkjRg0C1b6gmN2kBD+4eP4Y8vpSE= c=1 sm=0 a=EoEz7gjfvYsA:10 a=hTLHqrXJ1tUA:10 a=UT_QgiwtmQIA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=o2QoyYduAAAA:8 a=Elx2OmLHAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=_Smc5COJmf4On4HpngkA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=TlnOPt13aEMA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=AwVnUJsiI9RV4ZdL:21 a=wvSymTU-ZhODtynV:21 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=zkuxZ8pdAAAA:8 a=jJbx7Rs5AAAA:8 a=VC2ckGKFAAAA:8 a=dKBy5XKQAAAA:8 a=atTV94e_AAAA:8 a=QSyPdHgCAAAA:8 a=fd3OsDuWAAAA:8 a=y27Dq-I-AAAA:8 a=bx14cDxLVAZm8U2lQK0A:9 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=djSSOgbfo6cA:10 a=dHNSftIzac2VvkwZ:21 a=XaOXI6lPOCfaJ1v1f5GlrQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Received: from [10.135.134.173] ([10.135.134.173:61986] helo=pamxwww02-z02) by pacmmta52 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.47 r(39824M)) with ESMTP id 60/F2-18014-DBD62B05; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:13:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20121125141301.VCSA4.57987.root@pamxwww02-z02> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:13:01 -0600 From: To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_271134_1836341734.1353870781670" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal X-Originating-IP: 174.130.92.207 X-Auth-IP: 174.130.92.207 ------=_Part_271134_1836341734.1353870781670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess one way to proceed is accept some puddling but make the plenum out of metal. My injectors are at the belmouths and they are lower than the ports plus I will have to seal and adjust the clearance on the slide throttle. Another option is to place the injetors rith at the port downstream of the slide throttle. Cowl will look ugly. Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port On Sunday, November 25, 2012 12:51 PM, Charlie England wrote: > P Lamar had a P-port Renesis dyno'd using a Weber 2 barrel. ~250 hp at a pretty high rpm, but BSFC is bad. A carb doesn't care which way the air is moving; it will still supply fuel (no timed injection pulses). The pressure reversals in the intake tubes push fuel out of the intake. Google 'carburetor fuel standoff'. > > Charlie > > On 11/25/2012 10:18 AM, jskmberki@windstream.net wrote: > Mark and Richard, Thanks for the input. Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)? Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to move exactly the same or is there more to it? What about the Holley 500 CFM carb someone makes a mixture block for it? Any input on intake design for a PPort (2rotor)? Joe Berki Limo EZ > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > Joe, Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need 3 @ $395/ea. You would need to be able to sync them which might be a bit risky considering the big fan nearby. Of course this isn't necessary if only using one. > > Mark > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, wrote: > > Mark, The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > Joe, > > > If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable for assembly. This would greatly reduce the leak factor. > > > If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction interface. Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide. I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the rotors at idle. Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable to the slide. > > > On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior is during WOT operations. Anything less and the slide creates a lot of turbulence in the intake runners. That's a non-scientific personal observation of mine, FWIW. > > > Mark > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, wrote: > > > Mark, Thanks for the reply. I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built by Mazda Custom Parts Inc. by Doc Custer. I have my injectors near the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it looks like a redesign is in order. I emailed the company that makes V carb or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired about using 2 of those for a P Port. No one has used one on a rotary that they know of. I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lot so redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now. I have got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port. I think you have the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use. I was thinking of a gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more provide room for the teflon. I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor? Appreciate any input. Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. It used a solid 3/8" teflon slider. When I initially built it I didn't allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tighter the slider was in the cavity. He now recommends thin sheets of teflon bonded to an aluminum slider. I didn't try that, so I don't know if it corrected the problem. I modified my slide throttle by opening the tolerances up until it would work when hot. > > > > But then it also leaked. Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle before the slide. If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. Not a good situation. This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle. > > > > Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual rotors. So, precision is the word when drilling. My pieces were built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer plates. I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the welds. But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the results. > > > > And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the throttle cable. The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out. Mine never did, but the thought was always in the back of my mind. It was also very difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation and removal of the slide throttle. I feel that part of the design could use a bit more engineering to address this issue. > > > > Those are some of the issues that I've identified. I'm sure that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. So, I bought them and ended up using them. They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which makes them smooth as silk. They have a bung located downstream of the butterflies for the primary injectors. So, no more fuel puddling. The only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. But I was able to work around that. If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports. These fit the bill nicely. And it idles much better now. > > > > Mark > > > > P.S. Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes installed on the fuel injectors. Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers. Once I added those the idle improved a lot. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, wrote: > > > > Mark, Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? Can you expand on problems with the slide throttle? How thick was the slide? Thanks for any help Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > > Doug, > > > > > That's true. It is almost like an entirely different engine, especially the MAP readings. I guess you could compare it to installing a radical cam in your family driver. It would drastically alter the driving characteristics. Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port engines. It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. Hopefully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. > > > > > It also required a whole new intake. I tried the slide throttle, but there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. It has worked out great. It especially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the primary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. I had some fuel pooling issues with having them located upstream. The snowmobile tb's also operate much smoother than the slide throttle. At idle, vacuum sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force, making it difficult to work the throttle. > > > > > > > > > > And... it now burns more fuel than before. DUH! I could throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that??? > > > > > Mark S. > > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, wrote: > > > > > Mark Steitle wrote: >"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end over the original side-port 20b motor". That is outstanding Mark! I'd almost bet that your PP modification was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. a turbo / supercharger add on? Probably wouldn't seem like it as you were going through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :) Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_271134_1836341734.1353870781670 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I guess one way to proceed is accept some puddling but make the plenum o= ut of metal.  My injectors are at the belmouths and they are lower tha= n the ports plus I will have to seal and adjust the clearance on the slide = throttle.  Another option is to place the injetors rith at the port do= wnstream of the slide throttle.  Cowl will look ugly.

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port


On Sunday, November 25, 2012 12:51 PM, Charlie England <ceengland= 7@gmail.com> wrote:
>

P Lamar had a P-port Renesis dyno'd using a We= ber 2 barrel. ~250 hp at a pretty high rpm, but BSFC is bad. A carb doesn't= care which way the air is moving; it will still supply fuel (no timed inje= ction pulses). The pressure reversals in the intake tubes push fuel out of = the intake. Google 'carburetor fuel standoff'.
>
> Charlie
= >
> On 11/25/2012 10:18 AM, jskmberki@windstr= eam.net wrote:
>

Mark and Richard,

 

Thanks for the input.  Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)?=   Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to= move exactly the same or is there more to it?  What about the Holley = 500 CFM carb someone makes a mixture block for it?  Any input on intak= e design for a PPort (2rotor)?

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ
> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joe,  

Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need= 3 @ $395/ea.  You would need to be able to sync them which might be a= bit risky considering the big fan nearby.  Of course this isn't neces= sary if only using one.  =20

> >
Mark
> >
> >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, &= lt;jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> >= ;=20

Mark,

 

The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link

 

http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

 


> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle <<= A href=3D"mailto:msteitle%2540gmail.com" target=3D_blank moz-do-not-send=3D= "true">msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Joe, 


> > >
If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider= welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable= for assembly.  This would greatly reduce the leak factor.

> > >
If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to incor= porate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction inter= face.  Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide. =  I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the ro= tors at idle.  Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable t= o the slide.  

> > >
On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior i= s during WOT operations.  Anything less and the slide creates a lot of= turbulence in the intake runners.  That's a non-scientific personal o= bservation of mine, FWIW.

> > >
Mark

> > >
> > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, &= lt;jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
> &= gt; >=20

Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built = by Mazda Custom Parts Inc.  by Doc Custer.  I have my injectors n= ear the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so i= t looks like a redesign is in order.  I emailed the company that makes= V carb or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inqui= red about using 2 of those for a P Port.  No one has used one on a rot= ary that they know of.  I have to rebuild the engine and that is going= to cost a lot so redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish= now.  I have got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P P= ort.  I think you have the closest to optimum working P Port in aircra= ft use.  I was thinking of a gasket between the spacer and the side pl= ates which would more provide room for the teflon.  I also saw th= at Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands and airboats. What if you used = 2 of them one for each rotor?  Appreciate any input.

 

 Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port


> > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steit= le <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > = Joe, 

> > > >
It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor.  It u= sed a solid 3/8" teflon slider.  When I initially built it I didn't al= low for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tig= hter the slider was in the cavity.  He now recommends thin sheets of t= eflon bonded to an aluminum slider.  I didn't try that, so I don't kno= w if it corrected the problem.  I modified my slide throttle by openin= g the tolerances up until it would work when hot.  

> > > >
But then it also leaked.  Like I said earlier, the fuel would pud= dle before the slide.  If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plat= es and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust.  Not a good situatio= n.  This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with r= ough idle. 

> > > >
Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual r= otors.  So, precision is the word when drilling.  My pieces were = built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the out= er plates.  I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up t= he welds.  But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. &= nbsp;I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy wit= h the results.

> > > >
And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the throt= tle cable.  The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or sets= crew to keep the throttle cable from backing out.  Mine never did, but= the thought was always in the back of my mind.  It was also very diff= icult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installa= tion and removal of the slide throttle.  I feel that part of the desig= n could use a bit more engineering to address this issue.

> > > >
Those are some of the issues that I've identified.  I'm sure that= most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel thr= ottle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay.  So, I bought them and ended up= using them.  They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which ma= kes them smooth as silk.  They have a bung located downstream of the b= utterflies for the primary injectors.  So, no more fuel puddling. &nbs= p;The only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-m= outh.  But I was able to work around that.  If it wasn't a p-port= engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but = p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports.  These = fit the bill nicely.  And it idles much better now.  

> > > >
Mark

> > > >
P.S.  Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes in= stalled on the fuel injectors.  Best I can tell, this is a problem for= the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers.  Once I added those= the idle improved a lot.

> > > >
> > > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, = <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:
>= ; > > >=20

Mark,

 

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? = Can you expand on problems with the slide throttle?  How thick was th= e slide?  Thanks for any help

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

 

13b P Port


> > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Ste= itle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > &= gt; > Doug,


> > > > >
That's true.  It is almost like an entirely different engine, esp= ecially the MAP readings.  I guess you could compare it to installing = a radical cam in your family driver.  It would drastically alter the d= riving characteristics.  Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue o= n P-Port engines.  It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rp= m.  Hopefully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transi= tion.   =20

> > > > >
It also required a whole new intake.  I tried the slide throttle,= but there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using = three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies.  It has worked out great.  = ;It especially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having th= e primary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates.  I had = some fuel pooling issues with having them located upstream.  The snowm= obile tb's also operate much smoother than the slide throttle.  At idl= e, vacuum sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a signific= ant force, making it difficult to work the throttle.
> > > >= >
> > > > > And... it now burns more fuel than befor= e.  DUH!  I could throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to = do that???

> > > > >
Mark S.

> > > > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, &= lt;DLOMHEIM@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >= ; >=20
Mark Steitle wrote:
 
>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end ov= er the original side-port 20b motor".
 
That is outstanding Mark!  I'd almost bet that your PP modif= ication was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbe= rs vs. a turbo / supercharger add on?  Probably wouldn't seem lik= e it as you were going through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :)
 
Doug 
 

> > > > &g= t;

> > > >

&= gt; > > >

> > >
=
> > >

> >

> >

>

>
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