X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [137.118.16.59] (HELO smtp1.av-mx.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTP id 5903413 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:57:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=137.118.16.59; envelope-from=res12@fairpoint.net Received: from MAIN (unknown [209.105.170.215]) (Authenticated sender: res12@fairpoint.net) by smtp1.av-mx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6655B291C42 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:56:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Richard Sohn" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:56:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01CDCAFB.92A48530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CDCAFB.92A48530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Synchronization should not be a problem is you use one pick up for the = regulator reference pressure, and set the throttle position to have the = same MP on both. FWIW. Richard Sohn N2071U http://www.fairpoint.net/~res12/home.html From: jskmberki@windstream.net=20 Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:18 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: = Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 Mark and Richard, Thanks for the input. Has anyone got the P Port to run on carb(s)? = Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the throttle plates to = move exactly the same or is there more to it? What about the Holley 500 = CFM carb someone makes a mixture block for it? Any input on intake = design for a PPort (2rotor)? Joe Berki Limo EZ On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle = wrote:=20 > Joe, =20 Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would need 3 = @ $395/ea. You would need to be able to sync them which might be a bit = risky considering the big fan nearby. Of course this isn't necessary if = only using one. =20 >=20 Mark >=20 >=20 On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, = wrote: >=20 Mark, The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.html Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle = wrote:=20 > > Joe,=20 > >=20 If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider = welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end = removable for assembly. This would greatly reduce the leak factor. > >=20 If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to = incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a = friction interface. Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of = the slide. I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate = balancing the rotors at idle. Then figure out some way to safety the = throttle cable to the slide. =20 > >=20 On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior = is during WOT operations. Anything less and the slide creates a lot of = turbulence in the intake runners. That's a non-scientific personal = observation of mine, FWIW. > >=20 Mark > >=20 > >=20 On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, = wrote: > >=20 Mark, Thanks for the reply. I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built = by Mazda Custom Parts Inc. by Doc Custer. I have my injectors near the = bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it = looks like a redesign is in order. I emailed the company that makes V = carb or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone = inquired about using 2 of those for a P Port. No one has used one on a = rotary that they know of. I have to rebuild the engine and that is = going to cost a lot so redesigning the fuel system might be better to = accomplish now. I have got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for = the P Port. I think you have the closest to optimum working P Port in = aircraft use. I was thinking of a gasket between the spacer and the = side plates which would more provide room for the teflon. I also saw = that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands and airboats. What if you = used 2 of them one for each rotor? Appreciate any input. Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle = wrote:=20 > > > Joe,=20 > > >=20 It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. It used = a solid 3/8" teflon slider. When I initially built it I didn't allow = for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the = tighter the slider was in the cavity. He now recommends thin sheets of = teflon bonded to an aluminum slider. I didn't try that, so I don't know = if it corrected the problem. I modified my slide throttle by opening = the tolerances up until it would work when hot. =20 > > >=20 But then it also leaked. Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle = before the slide. If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and = spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. Not a good situation. This = could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle.=20 > > >=20 Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual = rotors. So, precision is the word when drilling. My pieces were built = using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer = plates. I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the = welds. But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. I = tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with = the results. > > >=20 And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the = throttle cable. The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or = setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out. Mine never did, = but the thought was always in the back of my mind. It was also very = difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for = installation and removal of the slide throttle. I feel that part of the = design could use a bit more engineering to address this issue. > > >=20 Those are some of the issues that I've identified. I'm sure that = most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel = throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. So, I bought them and ended = up using them. They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which = makes them smooth as silk. They have a bung located downstream of the = butterflies for the primary injectors. So, no more fuel puddling. The = only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a = bell-mouth. But I was able to work around that. If it wasn't a p-port = engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, = but p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports. = These fit the bill nicely. And it idles much better now. =20 > > >=20 Mark > > >=20 P.S. Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes = installed on the fuel injectors. Best I can tell, this is a problem for = the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers. Once I added those = the idle improved a lot. > > >=20 > > >=20 On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, = wrote: > > >=20 Mark, Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? = Can you expand on problems with the slide throttle? How thick was the = slide? Thanks for any help Joe Berki Limo EZ 13b P Port > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote:=20 > > > > Doug, > > > >=20 That's true. It is almost like an entirely different engine, = especially the MAP readings. I guess you could compare it to installing = a radical cam in your family driver. It would drastically alter the = driving characteristics. Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on = P-Port engines. It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. = Hopefully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. = =20 > > > >=20 It also required a whole new intake. I tried the slide throttle, = but there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one = using three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. It has worked out great. = It especially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having = the primary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. I had = some fuel pooling issues with having them located upstream. The = snowmobile tb's also operate much smoother than the slide throttle. At = idle, vacuum sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a = significant force, making it difficult to work the throttle. > > > >=20 > > > > And... it now burns more fuel than before. DUH! I could = throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that??? > > > >=20 Mark S. > > > >=20 On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, = wrote: > > > >=20 Mark Steitle wrote: >"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end = over the original side-port 20b motor". That is outstanding Mark! I'd almost bet that your PP = modification was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. = a turbo / supercharger add on? Probably wouldn't seem like it as you = were going through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :) Doug=20 > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CDCAFB.92A48530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Synchronization should not be a problem is you use one pick up for = the=20 regulator reference pressure, and set the throttle position to have the = same MP=20 on both.
FWIW.
 
Richard=20 Sohn
N2071U

http://www.fairpoint.net/~res12/home.html
 
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:18 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / = Mark's 20B=20 Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600
 

Mark and Richard,

 

Thanks for the input.  Has anyone got the P Port to run on=20 carb(s)?  Does synchronization of mutiple carbs require the = throttle plates=20 to move exactly the same or is there more to it?  What about the = Holley 500=20 CFM carb someone makes a mixture block for it?  Any input on intake = design=20 for a PPort (2rotor)?

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ
On Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:57 PM, Mark Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe, 

Yes, those are nice, but a bit pricey considering a 3-rotor would = need 3 @=20 $395/ea.  You would need to be able to sync them which might be a = bit risky=20 considering the big fan nearby.  Of course this isn't necessary if = only=20 using one.  =20

>
Mark
>
>=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:03 PM, <mailto:jskmberki%40windstream.net> = wrote:
>=20

Mark,

 

The carb was aero carb or aero injector here is the link

 

http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerocarb/index.ht= ml

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

 


> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 2:25 PM, Mark Steitle = <mailto:msteitle%40gmail.com> wrote:
> = > Joe,=20


> >
If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would = consider=20 welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end = removable for=20 assembly.  This would greatly reduce the leak factor.

> >
If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to=20 incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a = friction=20 interface.  Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of = the=20 slide.  I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate = balancing=20 the rotors at idle.  Then figure out some way to safety the = throttle=20 cable to the slide. 

> >
On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is = superior is=20 during WOT operations.  Anything less and the slide creates a lot = of=20 turbulence in the intake runners.  That's a non-scientific = personal=20 observation of mine, FWIW.

> >
Mark

> >
> >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, <mailto:jskmberki%2540windstream.net>=20 wrote:
> >=20

Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle = built=20 by Mazda Custom Parts Inc.  by Doc Custer.  I have my = injectors=20 near the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have = puddling so=20 it looks like a redesign is in order.  I emailed the company = that makes=20 V carb or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone = inquired about using 2 of those for a P Port.  No one has used = one on a=20 rotary that they know of.  I have to rebuild the engine and = that is=20 going to cost a lot so redesigning the fuel system might be better = to=20 accomplish now.  I have got zero room to accomodate any of the = needs=20 for the P Port.  I think you have the closest to optimum = working P Port=20 in aircraft use.  I was thinking of a gasket between the spacer = and the=20 side plates which would more provide room for the teflon.  I = also saw=20 that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands and airboats. What if = you used=20 2 of them one for each rotor?  Appreciate any input.

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port


> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark = Steitle=20 <mailto:msteitle%2540gmail.com> wrote: =
> >=20 > Joe,

> > >
It was the original design of PL, expanded for the = 3-rotor.  It=20 used a solid 3/8" teflon slider.  When I initially built it I = didn't=20 allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things = got the=20 tighter the slider was in the cavity.  He now recommends thin = sheets of=20 teflon bonded to an aluminum slider.  I didn't try that, so I = don't=20 know if it corrected the problem.  I modified my slide throttle = by=20 opening the tolerances up until it would work when hot. 

> > >
But then it also leaked.  Like I said earlier, the fuel = would=20 puddle before the slide.  If there wasn't a perfect seal = between the=20 plates and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust.  Not a = good=20 situation.  This could have been part of the problem I was = experiencing=20 with rough idle.

> > >
Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the = individual=20 rotors.  So, precision is the word when drilling.  My = pieces were=20 built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to = the=20 outer plates.  I may have gotten things a little "off" when = cleaning up=20 the welds.  But I could feel one rotor cutting out during = ground=20 ops.  I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was = never=20 happy with the results.

> > >
And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining = the=20 throttle cable.  The design as shown did not provide for a lock = nut or=20 setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out.  Mine = never did,=20 but the thought was always in the back of my mind.  It was also = very=20 difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly = for=20 installation and removal of the slide throttle.  I feel that = part of=20 the design could use a bit more engineering to address this = issue.

> > >
Those are some of the issues that I've identified.  I'm = sure that=20 most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little = one-barrel=20 throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay.  So, I bought them = and ended=20 up using them.  They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, = which=20 makes them smooth as silk.  They have a bung located downstream = of the=20 butterflies for the primary injectors.  So, no more fuel=20 puddling.  The only real problem with them was that the intake=20 incorporated a bell-mouth.  But I was able to work around = that. =20 If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one larger TB = before the=20 intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the butterflies = near the=20 ports.  These fit the bill nicely.  And it idles much = better=20 now. 

> > >
Mark

> > >
P.S.  Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have = diodes=20 installed on the fuel injectors.  Best I can tell, this is a = problem=20 for the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers.  Once I = added=20 those the idle improved a lot.

> > >
> > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, <mailto:jskmberki%252540windstream.net> = wrote:
> > >=20

Mark,

 

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and=20 source?  Can you expand on problems with the slide = throttle? =20 How thick was the slide?  Thanks for any help

 

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

 

13b P Port


> > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark = Steitle=20 <mailto:msteitle%252540gmail.com> wrote: =
> >=20 > > Doug,


> > > >
That's true.  It is almost like an entirely different = engine,=20 especially the MAP readings.  I guess you could compare it to = installing a radical cam in your family driver.  It would = drastically=20 alter the driving characteristics.  Tracy is working on a fix = for the=20 MAP issue on P-Port engines.  It only hits two addresses = between idle=20 and 4500 rpm.  Hopefully, the fix will help it to run = smoother=20 through the transition.   =20

> > > >
It also required a whole new intake.  I tried the slide=20 throttle, but there were some issues I didn't especially like, so = I built=20 one using three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies.  It has = worked out=20 great.  It especially improved the idle characteristics, = probably due=20 to having the primary injectors located downstream of the throttle = plates.  I had some fuel pooling issues with having them = located=20 upstream.  The snowmobile tb's also operate much smoother = than the=20 slide throttle.  At idle, vacuum sucks the slide against the=20 downstream side plate with a significant force, making it = difficult to=20 work the throttle.
> > > >
> > > > = And...=20 it now burns more fuel than before.  DUH!  I could = throttle back=20 and fly slower, but who wants to do that???

> > > >
Mark S.

> > > >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, <mailto:DLOMHEIM%25252540aol.com>=20 wrote:
> > > >=20
Mark Steitle wrote:
 
>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the = top end=20 over the original side-port 20b motor".
 
That is outstanding Mark!  I'd almost bet that your PP = modification was one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp = numbers vs.=20 a turbo / supercharger add on?  Probably wouldn't seem like = it as=20 you were going through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :)
 
Doug
 

> > = > >=20

> > > =

> >=20 >

> >

> = >=20

>

>
 
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