X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5740356 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 01 Sep 2012 20:44:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.145; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.203]) by imr-da03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q820hpSB002241 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:43:51 -0400 Received: from core-moe005c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-moe005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.188.81]) by mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 789A2E00008B for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:43:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <2cf96.3ab91649.3d7405c6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Pesky front cover O-ring To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_2cf96.3ab91649.3d7405c6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.30.23] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1346546631; bh=3/fhvUXxUQ9g1pV/p/6tzjjV3HKxmUHO1oOs6twO3nw=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bE2GMOalJEWtYWAo9+JJeWiBJEwGijPj7OBsZcCNq8V4w/4i55c+qdU4sIOH2Lmye Rdf5xWJNBrSOYw/1lbMUw/siJsclyIxVk0DzxuImIc6scA5yvMiXWjQIqg7HsVZCBL OyVytW9NfqIayxEJy9p4B4PmRQOoAyGN1lspjnCs= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:490612352:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cb5042abc72aa7 --part1_2cf96.3ab91649.3d7405c6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Mazda "O" ring installation does not follow suggested methods fro "O" ring manufacturers. "O" rings are typically trapped loosely in a groove of specific dimensions. When the groove is closed the "O" ring must not fill the groove, but be free to move a bit to establish a seal against pressure, and to prevent a hydraulic event where the total volume of the groove is less than the volume of the "O" ring. This can break or fracture the groove material, or force "O" ring material out of the groove area and create a leak. A good installation would include rigid groove walls which the Mazda does not have. High oil pressure pushes the rather limp front cover forward and allows the "O" ring to escape. I have also seen the "O" ring over fill the outer edge of the land area and form a loop that slips back over the oil passage to generate a smaller leak. As can be seen in the excellent Mazdatrix article, Mazda has been dancing around this problem from day one. A problem that would not have occurred in the USA. (In my opinion). How about we don't mill the tube to the same height as the gasket rails? Leave it .045" taller. More pre load and less machine time. The gasket takes back .018" of that and nobody is the wiser. Nobody looses face and the "O" rings stay in place for the most part. The solid Teflon washer like seal sounds real good also. About .030" thicker than the hole depth. There you go. No "O" ring to pop out. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 9/1/2012 7:48:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net writes: I have oil pressure again. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Sep 1, 2012, at 1:08 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <_bbradburry@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net) > wrote: I just got this same msg again with no changes but this time it came from Earnst. Anybody know why? Virus somewhere?? Bill B ____________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Finn Lassen Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 10:18 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Pesky front cover O-ring He still needs to machine the hole for the o-ring deeper. Unless the teflon ring will fit inside the hole it will act as a spacer and somehow allow the o-ring to slide out. Of course he won't listen to me. I already posted this earlier. Finn On 8/31/2012 6:46 PM, _hoursaway1@comcast.net_ (mailto:hoursaway1@comcast.net) wrote: Chris I do not know the size of this o-ring you & others have had a problem with but I have been servicing automobiles for 30 years, automatic trans & computer controlled sys. as specialty, we use, in some places Teflon sealing rings in various sizes ( 1/16" X 3/8" to 1.0" around, 1/8" X similar diam. ) they are somewhat soft yet very strong, they have some crush capability but I am sure they would not blow out with a high pressure situation. Take an o-ring to any trans shop & ask to match it to a Teflon ring. Check with Lynn. David. ____________________________________ From: "Chris Barber" __ (mailto:cbarber@texasattorney.net) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" __ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 3:56:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Pesky front cover O-ring Just pulled my front cover and low and behold that damned front cover O-ring was fricken GONE. The retaining ring was in place but no sign of the o-ring. Is it ok to pretty much glue this damn thing in some how???? Lynn suggested a metal solution but that is not in my skill set. I have halamar and used it last time. Yes, I did instal the ring. So, since I bought it I will be installing the new oil pump. Heck, the old one is over 20 years old. If any of y'all has a remedy for this damned thing slipping out you will have my complete attention. Oh, I am sending a picture or how I am making the front cover area easier to get to :-) Chris Sent from my iPhone 4 -- Homepage: _http://www.flyrotary.com/_ (http://www.flyrotary.com/) Archive and UnSub: _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html_ (http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html) --part1_2cf96.3ab91649.3d7405c6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Mazda "O" ring installation does not follow suggested methods fro = "O"=20 ring manufacturers. "O" rings are typically trapped loosely in a groove of= =20 specific dimensions. When the groove is closed the "O" ring must not fill t= he=20 groove, but be free to move a bit to establish a seal against pressure, and= to=20 prevent a hydraulic event where the total volume of the groove is less than= the=20 volume of the "O" ring. This can break or fracture the groove material, or = force=20 "O" ring material out of the groove area and create a leak.
 
A good installation would include rigid groove walls which the Mazda d= oes=20 not have. High oil pressure pushes the rather limp front cover forward and= =20 allows the "O" ring to escape. I have also seen the "O" ring over fill the = outer=20 edge of the land area and form a loop that slips back over the oil passage = to=20 generate a smaller leak.
 
As can be seen in the excellent Mazdatrix article, Mazda has been danc= ing=20 around this problem from day one. A problem that would not have occurred in= the=20 USA. (In my opinion).  How about we don't mill the tube to the same he= ight=20 as the gasket rails?  Leave it .045" taller. More pre load and less ma= chine=20 time. The gasket takes back .018" of that and nobody is the wiser. Nobody l= ooses=20 face and the "O" rings stay in place for the most part. The solid Teflon wa= sher=20 like seal sounds real good also. About .030" thicker than the hole depth. T= here=20 you go. No "O" ring to pop out.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
 
In a message dated 9/1/2012 7:48:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:
=
I have oil pressure again. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Sep 1, 2012, at 1:08 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 wrote:

I just got t= his=20 same msg again with no changes but this time it came from Earnst. = =20 Anybody know why?  Virus somewhere??

 <= /O:P>

Bill=20 B

 <= /O:P>

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft= =20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Finn Lassen
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 10= :18=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Pesky f= ront=20 cover O-ring

 

He still needs to machine the hole for the o-= ring=20 deeper. Unless the teflon ring will fit inside the hole it will act as = a=20 spacer and somehow allow the o-ring to slide out.

Of course he w= on't=20 listen to me. I already posted this earlier.

Finn

On=20 8/31/2012 6:46 PM, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote= :=20


Chris I do not know t= he size=20 of this o-ring you & others have had a problem with but  I&nbs= p;=20 have been servicing automobiles for 30 years,  automatic tran= s=20 & computer controlled sys. as specialty, we use, in some=20 places Teflon sealing rings in various sizes  ( 1/16" X 3/8" = to=20 1.0" around,  1/8" X similar diam. ) they are somewhat soft yet ve= ry=20 strong, they have some crush capability but I am sure they would not bl= ow=20 out with a high pressure situation. Take an o-ring to any trans shop &a= mp;=20 ask to match it to a Teflon ring.  Check with Lynn. = =20 David.  

From:= =20 "Chris=20 Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net= >
To: "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 3:= 56:05=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRota= ry]=20 Pesky front cover O-ring

Just pulled my front cover and low and= =20 behold that damned front cover O-ring was fricken GONE. The retaining r= ing=20 was in place but no sign of the o-ring. Is it ok to pretty much glue th= is=20 damn thing in some how????  Lynn suggested a metal solution but = that is=20 not in my skill set. I have halamar and used it last time. Yes, I did i= nstal=20 the ring.
So, since I bought it I will be installing the new oil pu= mp.=20 Heck, the old one is over 20 years old.  If any of y'all has a rem= edy=20 for this damned thing slipping out you will have my complete attention.= =20
Oh, I am sending a picture or how I am making the front cover area= =20 easier to get to :-)

Chris

Sent from my iPhone=20 4
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Arc= hive=20 and UnSub:   htt= p://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 

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