X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5728148 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:51:51 -0400 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.32; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.89]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id qrCU1j0021vN32cA3rrG0M; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:51:16 +0000 Received: from gregiv ([24.6.73.102]) by omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id qrrF1j0022CQjog8irrFxZ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:51:15 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:51:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_076C_01CD823A.31FE35F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_076C_01CD823A.31FE35F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Old Stories time) In 1981 I bought an RX-7, drove it for a year, and = had it turboed at a speed shop in L.A. No intercoolers for cars in = those days. The way they got around detonation was with water = injection. A cheap windshield washer container and pump, and a vacuum = sensor at the intake. With adjustable boost, it ran great! Sea level = was the most dangerous, had to watch it close there, but going over = Sherwin and Donners summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in almost 9-10 = lbs, and that sucker screamed. Put probably 50K miles on it before I = sold it, and never had any trouble. So, all, would water injection be a = good backup for hot days? I heard that some of the early turbocharged = engines during WWII used it, so why haven't we tried it? Greg Ward Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: hoursaway1@comcast.net=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: = [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. See how much one can learn from one simple sentance. Thanks all for = the update. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary 28hrs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: "David Leonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: = [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. And just to belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% = efficient. Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to = compress the air but did not, ends up as additional heat in the = compressed air. And, the turbo itself is very hot even on the = compressor side, which adds even more calories. All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of boost without an = intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra rich and or = retarding the timing. Much better in the long run to use an = intercooler. David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten = wrote: Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you compress = it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly increasing = the chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to = reap any benefit from the turbo.=20 Dave.=20 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote: Hay Chris, I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an = intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the = racers on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, = not at 6000+++ feet. just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead = of a muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice. David R. Cook RV6A = Rotary Lansing MI. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: "Chris Barber" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: = [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest = I have as I wanted to start low.=20 I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or = leak I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will = remove it and see if I get good boost Sent from my iPhone 4 On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" = wrote: Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the = wastegate spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost = available, as the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced = through the turbo. Chris? Chrissi & Randi www.CozyGirrrl.com ClickBonds 10/$7.50 CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, = andrew@martinag.com.au writes: Chris if your blow off valve is before the intercooler, it may just = be opening too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing all your air to = vent, then the engine would act as NA but with the intercooler as a = added restriction. try a heavier spring. Andrew On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber = wrote: Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my concern after my = cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full power. Trying to determine where the restriction is now. You are the best. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" = wrote: > Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is = your coolant/oil temps. As you know take-off is the worst combination = of low cooling air mass flow and max engine temperature due to WOT. > > You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional = power you now have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. = So I would be certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next = take-off until you know how the system is going to react - hate to see = you cook your engine during your first real Turbo climb out. > > I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as = quick as possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. So that = generally meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then = level off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. Then I could resume = climb with cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and = airflow increased. Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be = different given different platform and cooling set up. > > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Chris Barber" > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question. > >> As I have mentioned I have had what I think are = incongruent readings regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. = It seems I am getting quite low mp as I add power to higher rpm. >> >> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is that = as I add power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in = my wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more. >> >> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with = the turbo hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I = removed the turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My = results currently confuse me. >> >> With the turbo hooked up I am getting >> >> RPM. MP inches >> 2000 - 14.0 >> 3000 - 15.5 >> 4000 - 19.3 >> 5000 - 21.6 >> 5700 - 24.5 (topped out) >> >> With the turbo removed. >> >> 2000 - 15.8 >> 3000 - 15.3 >> 4000 - 19.7 >> 5000 - 24.8 >> 5833 - 29.8 >> >> Is this indicative of restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps = in the inter cooler? A dirty air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak = not allowing the air pressure getting to the intake. Or???? >> >> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and = provide. I am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only = have 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and input. >> >> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just = doesn't seem right/comfortable. >> >> Thanks folks. >> >> Chris Barber >> Houston >> Velocity SE >> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-) >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - = Release Date: 08/20/12 >> > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag 275 Newmarracarra Rd Moonyoonooka WA 6532 0427477144 08 99241145 andrew@martinag.com.au --=20 ------=_NextPart_000_076C_01CD823A.31FE35F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
(Old Stories time)  In 1981 I bought an = RX-7,=20 drove it for a year, and had it turboed at a speed shop in L.A.  No = intercoolers for cars in those days.  The way they got around = detonation=20 was with water injection.  A cheap windshield washer container and = pump,=20 and a vacuum sensor at the intake.  With adjustable boost, it ran=20 great!  Sea level was the most dangerous, had to watch it close = there, but=20 going over Sherwin and Donners summits (6,000 ft. +) I could dial in = almost 9-10=20 lbs, and that sucker screamed.  Put probably 50K miles on it before = I sold=20 it, and never had any trouble.  So, all, would water injection be a = good=20 backup for hot days?  I heard that some of the early turbocharged=20 engines during WWII used it, so why haven't we tried = it?
Greg Ward
Lancair Legacy 20b, STILL in = progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 hoursaway1@comcast.net =
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 = 8:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check = Temps on=20 Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.


See how=20 much one can learn from one simple sentance.  Thanks all for the=20 update.  David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary  28hrs.
From: "David Leonard" <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To:= =20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Friday, August 24, 2012 8:51:21 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.

And = just to=20 belabor the point even more, turbos are less than 100% = efficient. =20 Meaning that any extra work that went into trying to compress the air = but did=20 not, ends up as additional heat in the compressed air.  And, the = turbo=20 itself is very hot even on the compressor side, which adds even more=20 calories.

All that being said, you CAN run small amounts of = boost=20 without an intercooler, but you have to compensate by running extra = rich and=20 or retarding the timing.  Much better in the long run to use an=20 intercooler.

David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Staten = <david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:
Air at altitude is cooler because of low pressure. When you = compress=20 it, it heats. Intake temps can be over 250 degrees, greatly = increasing the=20 chance of detonation. Intercoolers are VERY necessary if you want to = reap=20 any benefit from the turbo. 

Dave. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2012, at 17:45, hoursaway1@comcast.net wrote:

Hay = Chris,  I'm not=20 turbo savy, but do you realy need an intercooler,,,,,,,at = altitude,,,,,,=20 the air is pretty cold already, the racers on the ground need them = because=20 the air near the ground is hot, not at 6000+++ feet.  just a = thought=20 & will be watching, a turbo instead of a muffler I'm thinking = may be a=20 better choice.  David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary Lansing = MI.

From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: = "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: = [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.

Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the = lowest I=20 have as I wanted to start low. 
I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No = obstruction or=20 leak I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I = will=20 remove it and see if I get good boost



Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com>=20 wrote:

Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is = the=20 wastegate spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest = boost=20 available, as the springs get stronger the more exhaust is = forced=20 through the turbo.
Chris?
 
Chrissi & Randi

www.CozyGirrrl.com
ClickBonds = 10/$7.50
CG=20 Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun = Engine=20 Workshop
 
In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight = Time, andrew@martinag.com.au writes:
Chris

if your blow off valve is before the = intercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb = spring and=20 allowing all your air to vent, then the engine would act as NA = but=20 with the intercooler as a added restriction. try a heavier=20 spring.

Andrew

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, = Chris Barber=20 <cbarber@texasattorney.net> = wrote:
Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my = concern=20 after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full=20 power.

Trying to determine where the restriction is=20 now.

You are the best.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> = wrote:

>=20 Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is = your=20 coolant/oil temps.  As you know take-off is the worst=20 combination of low cooling air mass flow and max engine = temperature=20 due to WOT.
>
> You would be surprised how = quickly (with=20 the additional power you now have) you will exceed your = cooling=20 limits if not careful.  So I would be certain to check = the=20 temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off until you = know how=20 the system is going to react - hate to see you cook your = engine=20 during your first real Turbo climb out.
>
> I = find for=20 my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quick as = possible to=20 get on the good side of the cooling curve.  So that = generally=20 meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, = then level=20 off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120.  Then I could = resume=20 climb with cooling gradually bring the temps down as = altitude and=20 airflow increased.  Your sweet spot airspeed would = undoubtedly=20 be different given different platform and cooling set=20 up.
>
> Ed
>
>=20 --------------------------------------------------
> = From:=20 "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
> = Sent:=20 Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM
> To: "Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> = Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Turbo question.
>
>> As I have = mentioned=20 I have had what I think are incongruent readings regarding = my=20 manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting = quite=20 low mp as I add power to higher rpm.
>>
>> = I am=20 not well versed in this area but my thought is that as I add = power,=20 even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in my=20 wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit=20 more.
>>
>> Today I did some static test. = I=20 recorded engine RPM with the  turbo hooked up and = recorded the=20 mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed the turbo plumbing = from my=20 intake and recorded the same info My results currently = confuse=20 me.
>>
>> With the turbo hooked up I am=20 getting
>>
>> RPM.   MP = inches
>>=20 2000 - 14.0
>> 3000 - 15.5
>> 4000 -=20 19.3
>> 5000 - 21.6
>> 5700 - 24.5 (topped = out)
>>
>> With the turbo=20 removed.
>>
>> 2000 - 15.8
>> = 3000 -=20 15.3
>> 4000 - 19.7
>> 5000 - = 24.8
>>=20 5833 - 29.8
>>
>> Is this indicative of=20 restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A = dirty air=20 filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the air = pressure=20 getting to the intake. Or????
>>
>> I am = uncertain=20 what other permitters I need to check and provide. I am just = starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only have = 1.6 hours=20 in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and=20 input.
>>
>> Heck, perhaps this is working = properly but it just doesn't seem=20 right/comfortable.
>>
>> Thanks=20 folks.
>>
>> Chris Barber
>>=20 Houston
>> Velocity SE
>> Rotary 13b turbo = (?)=20 :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent = from my=20 iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> = Archive and=20 UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
>>
>>
>>=20 -----
>> No virus found in this = message.
>>=20 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>=20 Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release = Date:=20 08/20/12
>>
>
> --
> Homepage: =  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

--
Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:=20   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


--
Regards

Andrew Martin
Martin = Ag
275=20 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA = 6532

0427477144
08=20 99241145
andrew@martinag.com.au
<= /FONT>


--
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