X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5727964 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:49:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=QrvcLCOd c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=AHkS0RJitIMA:10 a=1Ui_yMFihKQA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=h5CMovOnEx8A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=AjIZj8SU7-QS3BUqhAEA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=nE16ASCt8TMsNSHyW-kA:9 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=at0Q5_2dr5wA:10 a=ZHUsY8zHUz0Vp2Os_2YA:9 a=1Vq_FK4TplAA:10 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:49261] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 6D/8A-28917-4D408305; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:48:53 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:48:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01CD8229.1BDBEBC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01CD8229.1BDBEBC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01CD8229.1BDBEBC0" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01CD8229.1BDBEBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No doubt it could stand improvements for sure, Jeff. There are four DT's I employ in the cooling equations. Change in air = temperature across the radiator, change in air temperature across the = oil cooler and change in fluid temperature of the coolant and oil as = they flow through their heat exchanger. I have heard of Air DT across = the radiator ranging from 50-100F, I am currently using a DT of 70F , = but I know that Tracy has reported a DT of 100F. I am also using DT = of 70F for the oil cooler and that is probably too high. For both = fluid DTs, I am using 16F. IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine = those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section. As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section there is no input for OAT = although there is for the power section. My initial thoughts would be = to pick=20 some OAT and I'm thinking of 59F (SL standard day temp) as a nominal mid = point of DT. Then if OAT is above that DT, then to simply subtract the = difference between OAT and 59F and reduce the air DT across the radiator = by that amount. Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that DT to = the 70F I am currently using.=20 By increasing the DT factor more heat is transferred (better cooling) by = reducing the DT factor less heat is transferred (worst cooling) =20 IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine = those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Jeff Whaley=20 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where it should be . Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; however, not to be = too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs OAT Vs = Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy. For example, at any RPM, AF, HP, simply increasing the OAT value in the = spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity . My installation's = capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than the resulting = change in HP due to OAT . I had no cooling problems at 50F but had big = problems at 100F . The spreadsheet indicates opposite. Jeff=20 From: Ernest Christley =20 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section =20 Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400 =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 =20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson wrote: > But, as stated before the cooling section is on less solid = ground due to > the fact that installation variables play such a large role in = cooling > and they are not taken into consideration. But, you can play = with it to > see the effects of changing several variables on cooling. > =20 > Ed > =20 Just been playing with this, pulling data out of my data logs. I = don't have all my numbers exact yet, but I think this will be useful for making a SWAG at determining if the system will = stay within safety margins during various phases of flight. Would it be to much to ask those with flying machines if they can = go out and determine where their system starts to warm up, which would be a rough indication of where the cooling = capacity is exceeded? I thinking of doing a steep climbout and slowly dropping the nose until the temps start coming down, = noting the temp, MAP, airspeed and AFR at that point. I don't think it is necessary to tell grown people that built their = own airplane that they need to be careful about airspeed while doing something like this. If we can get a = variety of samples, we can put error bars around the numbers that the spreadsheet gives. =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.=20 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5220 - Release Date: = 08/23/12 ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01CD8229.1BDBEBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No doubt it could stand improvements for = sure,=20 Jeff.
 
  There are four DT's I employ in the cooling=20 equations.  Change in  air temperature across the radiator, = change in=20 air temperature across the oil cooler and change in = fluid temperature of=20 the coolant and oil as they flow through their heat = exchanger.   =20 I have heard of Air DT across=20 the radiator ranging from 50-100F,  I am currently using a = DT of 70F , but I know that = Tracy has=20 reported a=20 DT of  100F.   I am also using = DT of 70F for the oil cooler and = that is=20 probably too high.    For both fluid DTs, I am using 16F.
 
IF anyone has reference material or sources that = could=20 help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the = cooling=20 section.
 
As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section = there is no=20 input for OAT although there is for the power section.  My initial = thoughts=20 would be to pick
 
some OAT and I'm thinking of 59F (SL = standard=20 day temp) as a nominal mid point of =20 DT.  Then if OAT is above that DT, then to simply subtract the = difference=20 between OAT and 59F and reduce the air DT across the radiator by that = amount. =20 Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that DT to the 70F I am currently=20 using. 
 
By increasing the DT factor more heat is transferred (better = cooling)=20 by reducing the DT = factor less=20 heat is transferred (worst cooling)
 
IF anyone has reference material or sources that = could=20 help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling=20 section.

Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling=20 Section

Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where = it should=20 be =85

Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; = however,=20 not to be too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs = OAT Vs=20 Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy.

For example, at any RPM, AF, HP,  simply = increasing the=20 OAT value in the spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity =85 My = installation=92s capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than = the=20 resulting change in HP due to OAT .  I had no cooling problems at = 50F but=20 had big problems at 100F =85 The spreadsheet indicates opposite.

Jeff

 

From:

Ernest=20 Christley = <echristley@att.net>

Subject:

Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling = Section

Date:

Fri,=20 24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400

To:

Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

<= /TD>



Ed Anderson=20 wrote:

> But, as = stated=20 before the cooling section is on less solid ground due = to
> the = fact that=20 installation variables play such a large role in = cooling
> and = they are not=20 taken into consideration.  But, you can play with it = to
> see the = effects=20 of changing several variables on cooling.
>=20  
> = Ed
>=20  

Just been = playing with=20 this, pulling data out of my data logs.  I don't have all my = numbers=20 exact yet, but I think this
will be = useful for=20 making a SWAG at determining if the system will stay within safety = margins=20 during various phases of
flight.

Would it be = to much to=20 ask those with flying machines if they can go out and determine = where=20 their system starts to warm
up, which = would be a=20 rough indication of where the cooling capacity is exceeded? =  I=20 thinking of doing a steep climbout
and slowly = dropping=20 the nose until the temps start coming down, noting the temp, MAP, = airspeed=20 and AFR at that point.  I
don't think = it is=20 necessary to tell grown people that built their own airplane that = they=20 need to be careful about
airspeed = while doing=20 something like this.    If we can get a variety of = samples, we=20 can put error bars around the
numbers that = the=20 spreadsheet gives.

 

This message, and the documents = attached=20 hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If=20 you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so = that we=20 may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original = message. Thank=20 you.

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / = Virus=20 Database: 2437/5220 - Release Date: 08/23/12

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