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From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-5727394@logan.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-5727394@logan.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:48:53 -0400
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No doubt it could stand improvements for sure, Jeff.

  There are four DT's I employ in the cooling equations.  Change in  air =
temperature across the radiator, change in air temperature across the =
oil cooler and change in fluid temperature of the coolant and oil as =
they flow through their heat exchanger.    I have heard of Air DT across =
the radiator ranging from 50-100F,  I am currently using a DT of 70F , =
but I know that Tracy has reported a DT of  100F.   I am also using DT =
of 70F for the oil cooler and that is probably too high.    For both =
fluid DTs, I am using 16F.

IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine =
those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section.

As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section there is no input for OAT =
although there is for the power section.  My initial thoughts would be =
to pick=20

some OAT and I'm thinking of 59F (SL standard day temp) as a nominal mid =
point of  DT.  Then if OAT is above that DT, then to simply subtract the =
difference between OAT and 59F and reduce the air DT across the radiator =
by that amount.  Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that DT to =
the 70F I am currently using.=20

By increasing the DT factor more heat is transferred (better cooling) by =
reducing the DT factor less heat is transferred (worst cooling)

=20
IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine =
those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section.

Ed

Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Jeff Whaley=20
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section


Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where it should be .

Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; however, not to be =
too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs OAT Vs =
Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy.

For example, at any RPM, AF, HP,  simply increasing the OAT value in the =
spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity . My installation's =
capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than the resulting =
change in HP due to OAT .  I had no cooling problems at 50F but had big =
problems at 100F . The spreadsheet indicates opposite.

Jeff=20



                  From:
                 Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
                =20
                  Subject:
                 Re: [FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section
                =20
                  Date:
                 Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400
                =20
                  To:
                 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
                =20
          =20


          =20
    =20
      Ed Anderson wrote:

      > But, as stated before the cooling section is on less solid =
ground due to
      > the fact that installation variables play such a large role in =
cooling
      > and they are not taken into consideration.  But, you can play =
with it to
      > see the effects of changing several variables on cooling.
      > =20
      > Ed
      > =20

      Just been playing with this, pulling data out of my data logs.  I =
don't have all my numbers exact yet, but I think this
      will be useful for making a SWAG at determining if the system will =
stay within safety margins during various phases of
      flight.

      Would it be to much to ask those with flying machines if they can =
go out and determine where their system starts to warm
      up, which would be a rough indication of where the cooling =
capacity is exceeded?  I thinking of doing a steep climbout
      and slowly dropping the nose until the temps start coming down, =
noting the temp, MAP, airspeed and AFR at that point.  I
      don't think it is necessary to tell grown people that built their =
own airplane that they need to be careful about
      airspeed while doing something like this.    If we can get a =
variety of samples, we can put error bars around the
      numbers that the spreadsheet gives.
    =20



This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for =
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Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received =
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vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue=20
CanvasTabStop=3D"true" name=3D"Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>No doubt it could stand&nbsp;improvements for =
sure,=20
Jeff.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp; There are four <FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol><STRONG>D</STRONG></FONT>T's I employ in the cooling=20
equations.&nbsp; Change in&nbsp; air temperature across the radiator, =
change in=20
air temperature across the oil cooler and change in =
fluid&nbsp;temperature of=20
the coolant and oil as they flow through their heat =
exchanger.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
I have heard of Air <STRONG><FONT size=3D5 =
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T across=20
the radiator ranging from 50-100F,&nbsp; I am currently using a =
<STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T of 70F&nbsp;, but I know that =
Tracy has=20
reported <FONT size=3D5 face=3DSymbol><FONT size=3D3 =
face=3DArial>a</FONT><STRONG>=20
D</STRONG></FONT>T of&nbsp; 100F.&nbsp; &nbsp;I am also using =
<STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T of 70F for the oil cooler and =
that is=20
probably too high.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;For&nbsp;both fluid <STRONG><FONT =
size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>Ts, I am using 16F.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>IF anyone has reference material or sources that =
could=20
help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly&nbsp;improve the =
cooling=20
section.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section =
there is no=20
input for OAT although there is for the power section.&nbsp; My initial =
thoughts=20
would be to pick </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>some&nbsp;OAT&nbsp;and I'm thinking of 59F (SL =
standard=20
day temp) as a nominal mid point of<STRONG><FONT size=3D5 =
face=3DSymbol>&nbsp;=20
D</FONT></STRONG>T.&nbsp; Then if OAT is above that <STRONG><FONT =
size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T, then&nbsp;to simply subtract the =
difference=20
between OAT and 59F and reduce the air <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T across the radiator by that =
amount.&nbsp;=20
Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T&nbsp;to the&nbsp;70F I am currently=20
using.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>By increasing the <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T factor more heat is transferred (better =
cooling)=20
by reducing the <STRONG><FONT size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T =
factor less=20
heat is transferred (worst cooling)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>IF anyone has reference material or sources that =
could=20
help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling=20
section.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Edward L. Anderson<BR>Anderson Electronic =
Enterprises=20
LLC<BR>305 Reefton Road<BR>Weddington, NC 28104<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.andersonee.com">http://www.andersonee.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.eicommander.com">http://www.eicommander.com</A><BR></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com&#10;CTRL + Click to follow link"=20
href=3D"mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com">Jeff Whaley</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net&#10;CTRL + Click to follow =
link"=20
href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">Rotary motors in =
aircraft</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling=20
Section</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where =
it should=20
be =85</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; =
however,=20
not to be too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs =
OAT Vs=20
Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>For example, at any RPM, AF, HP,&nbsp; simply =
increasing the=20
OAT value in the spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity =85 My =

installation=92s capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than =
the=20
resulting change in HP due to OAT .&nbsp; I had no cooling problems at =
50F but=20
had big problems at 100F =85 The spreadsheet indicates opposite.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Jeff </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>
<TABLE style=3D"WIDTH: 100%" class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%">
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  <TR>
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    style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in">
      <TABLE style=3D"WIDTH: 100%" class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
      cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR>
          <TD=20
          style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; WIDTH: =
100%; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"=20
          width=3D"100%">
            <TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
              <TBODY>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">From:</SPAN></P></TD>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Ernest=20
                  Christley =
&lt;echristley@att.net&gt;</SPAN></P></TD></TR>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Subject:</SPAN></P></TD>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Re:=20
                  [FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling =
Section</SPAN></P></TD></TR>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Date:</SPAN></P></TD>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Fri,=20
                  24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400</SPAN></P></TD></TR>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">To:</SPAN></P></TD>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Rotary=20
                  motors in aircraft=20
                  =
&lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net&gt;</SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><=
/TD>
          <TD=20
          style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
            <P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/58870-H.txt"=20
            target=3D_blank><B><SPAN=20
            style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><IMG=20
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            height=3D13></SPAN></B></A><SPAN=20
            style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
9pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/58870-P.txt"=20
            target=3D_blank><B><SPAN=20
            style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><IMG=20
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            height=3D13></SPAN></B></A><SPAN=20
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9pt"></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in">
      <P style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ed Anderson=20
      wrote:</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt; But, as =
stated=20
      before the cooling section is on less solid ground due =
to</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt; the =
fact that=20
      installation variables play such a large role in =
cooling</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt; and =
they are not=20
      taken into consideration. &nbsp;But, you can play with it =
to</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt; see the =
effects=20
      of changing several variables on cooling.</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt;=20
      &nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt; =
Ed</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&gt;=20
      &nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just been =
playing with=20
      this, pulling data out of my data logs. &nbsp;I don't have all my =
numbers=20
      exact yet, but I think this</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">will be =
useful for=20
      making a SWAG at determining if the system will stay within safety =
margins=20
      during various phases of</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">flight.</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Would it be =
to much to=20
      ask those with flying machines if they can go out and determine =
where=20
      their system starts to warm</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">up, which =
would be a=20
      rough indication of where the cooling capacity is exceeded? =
&nbsp;I=20
      thinking of doing a steep climbout</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">and slowly =
dropping=20
      the nose until the temps start coming down, noting the temp, MAP, =
airspeed=20
      and AFR at that point. &nbsp;I</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">don't think =
it is=20
      necessary to tell grown people that built their own airplane that =
they=20
      need to be careful about</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">airspeed =
while doing=20
      something like this. &nbsp; &nbsp;If we can get a variety of =
samples, we=20
      can put error bars around the</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">numbers that =
the=20
      spreadsheet gives.</SPAN><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
9pt"></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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