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From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-5727394@logan.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-5727394@logan.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:48:53 -0400
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No doubt it could stand improvements for sure, Jeff.
There are four DT's I employ in the cooling equations. Change in air =
temperature across the radiator, change in air temperature across the =
oil cooler and change in fluid temperature of the coolant and oil as =
they flow through their heat exchanger. I have heard of Air DT across =
the radiator ranging from 50-100F, I am currently using a DT of 70F , =
but I know that Tracy has reported a DT of 100F. I am also using DT =
of 70F for the oil cooler and that is probably too high. For both =
fluid DTs, I am using 16F.
IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine =
those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section.
As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section there is no input for OAT =
although there is for the power section. My initial thoughts would be =
to pick=20
some OAT and I'm thinking of 59F (SL standard day temp) as a nominal mid =
point of DT. Then if OAT is above that DT, then to simply subtract the =
difference between OAT and 59F and reduce the air DT across the radiator =
by that amount. Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that DT to =
the 70F I am currently using.=20
By increasing the DT factor more heat is transferred (better cooling) by =
reducing the DT factor less heat is transferred (worst cooling)
=20
IF anyone has reference material or sources that could help me refine =
those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling section.
Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
From: Jeff Whaley=20
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section
Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where it should be .
Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; however, not to be =
too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs OAT Vs =
Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy.
For example, at any RPM, AF, HP, simply increasing the OAT value in the =
spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity . My installation's =
capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than the resulting =
change in HP due to OAT . I had no cooling problems at 50F but had big =
problems at 100F . The spreadsheet indicates opposite.
Jeff=20
From:
Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
=20
Subject:
Re: [FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling Section
=20
Date:
Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400
=20
To:
Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
=20
=20
=20
=20
Ed Anderson wrote:
> But, as stated before the cooling section is on less solid =
ground due to
> the fact that installation variables play such a large role in =
cooling
> and they are not taken into consideration. But, you can play =
with it to
> see the effects of changing several variables on cooling.
> =20
> Ed
> =20
Just been playing with this, pulling data out of my data logs. I =
don't have all my numbers exact yet, but I think this
will be useful for making a SWAG at determining if the system will =
stay within safety margins during various phases of
flight.
Would it be to much to ask those with flying machines if they can =
go out and determine where their system starts to warm
up, which would be a rough indication of where the cooling =
capacity is exceeded? I thinking of doing a steep climbout
and slowly dropping the nose until the temps start coming down, =
noting the temp, MAP, airspeed and AFR at that point. I
don't think it is necessary to tell grown people that built their =
own airplane that they need to be careful about
airspeed while doing something like this. If we can get a =
variety of samples, we can put error bars around the
numbers that the spreadsheet gives.
=20
This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for =
the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. =
Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received =
this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may =
correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. =
Thank you.=20
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5220 - Release Date: =
08/23/12
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>No doubt it could stand improvements for =
sure,=20
Jeff.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> There are four <FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol><STRONG>D</STRONG></FONT>T's I employ in the cooling=20
equations. Change in air temperature across the radiator, =
change in=20
air temperature across the oil cooler and change in =
fluid temperature of=20
the coolant and oil as they flow through their heat =
exchanger. =20
I have heard of Air <STRONG><FONT size=3D5 =
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T across=20
the radiator ranging from 50-100F, I am currently using a =
<STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T of 70F , but I know that =
Tracy has=20
reported <FONT size=3D5 face=3DSymbol><FONT size=3D3 =
face=3DArial>a</FONT><STRONG>=20
D</STRONG></FONT>T of 100F. I am also using =
<STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T of 70F for the oil cooler and =
that is=20
probably too high. For both fluid <STRONG><FONT =
size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>Ts, I am using 16F.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>IF anyone has reference material or sources that =
could=20
help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the =
cooling=20
section.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>As Jeff pointed out for the cooling section =
there is no=20
input for OAT although there is for the power section. My initial =
thoughts=20
would be to pick </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>some OAT and I'm thinking of 59F (SL =
standard=20
day temp) as a nominal mid point of<STRONG><FONT size=3D5 =
face=3DSymbol> =20
D</FONT></STRONG>T. Then if OAT is above that <STRONG><FONT =
size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T, then to simply subtract the =
difference=20
between OAT and 59F and reduce the air <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T across the radiator by that =
amount. =20
Conversely if OAT is below 59F then to add that <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T to the 70F I am currently=20
using. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>By increasing the <STRONG><FONT size=3D5=20
face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T factor more heat is transferred (better =
cooling)=20
by reducing the <STRONG><FONT size=3D5 face=3DSymbol>D</FONT></STRONG>T =
factor less=20
heat is transferred (worst cooling)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>IF anyone has reference material or sources that =
could=20
help me refine those figures - it would undoubtedly improve the cooling=20
section.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Edward L. Anderson<BR>Anderson Electronic =
Enterprises=20
LLC<BR>305 Reefton Road<BR>Weddington, NC 28104<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.andersonee.com">http://www.andersonee.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.eicommander.com">http://www.eicommander.com</A><BR></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com CTRL + Click to follow link"=20
href=3D"mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com">Jeff Whaley</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 24, 2012 11:49 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net CTRL + Click to follow =
link"=20
href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">Rotary motors in =
aircraft</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [FlyRotary] Re: [flyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling=20
Section</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Ed, you did say he cooling chart is not quite where =
it should=20
be =85</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Plugging some numbers in there is very interesting; =
however,=20
not to be too critical but I think the constants used to calculate HP Vs =
OAT Vs=20
Cooling Capacity are a bit fuzzy.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>For example, at any RPM, AF, HP, simply =
increasing the=20
OAT value in the spreadsheet results in improved cooling capacity =85 My =
installation=92s capacity to cool was much more influenced by OAT than =
the=20
resulting change in HP due to OAT . I had no cooling problems at =
50F but=20
had big problems at 100F =85 The spreadsheet indicates opposite.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Jeff </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P>
<TABLE style=3D"WIDTH: 100%" class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
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style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in">
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cellSpacing=3D0=20
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<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; WIDTH: =
100%; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"=20
width=3D"100%">
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">From:</SPAN></P></TD>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Ernest=20
Christley =
<echristley@att.net></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Subject:</SPAN></P></TD>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Re:=20
[FlyRotary] Spreadsheet Cooling =
Section</SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Date:</SPAN></P></TD>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Fri,=20
24 Aug 2012 10:41:30 -0400</SPAN></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">To:</SPAN></P></TD>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Rotary=20
motors in aircraft=20
=
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><=
/TD>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt">
<P style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter><A=20
=
href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/58870-H.txt"=20
target=3D_blank><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; =
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style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
9pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><A=20
=
href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/58870-P.txt"=20
target=3D_blank><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; =
FONT-SIZE: 9pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><IMG=20
id=3DPicture_x0020_2 border=3D0 alt=3D"Undecoded Message"=20
src=3D"cid:6CC168DAE29B4E9F8A103514CE6D517D@EdPC" width=3D10 =
height=3D13></SPAN></B></A><SPAN=20
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9pt"></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ed Anderson=20
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> But, as =
stated=20
before the cooling section is on less solid ground due =
to</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> the =
fact that=20
installation variables play such a large role in =
cooling</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> and =
they are not=20
taken into consideration. But, you can play with it =
to</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> see the =
effects=20
of changing several variables on cooling.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> =
Ed</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just been =
playing with=20
this, pulling data out of my data logs. I don't have all my =
numbers=20
exact yet, but I think this</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">will be =
useful for=20
making a SWAG at determining if the system will stay within safety =
margins=20
during various phases of</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">flight.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Would it be =
to much to=20
ask those with flying machines if they can go out and determine =
where=20
their system starts to warm</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">up, which =
would be a=20
rough indication of where the cooling capacity is exceeded? =
I=20
thinking of doing a steep climbout</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">and slowly =
dropping=20
the nose until the temps start coming down, noting the temp, MAP, =
airspeed=20
and AFR at that point. I</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">don't think =
it is=20
necessary to tell grown people that built their own airplane that =
they=20
need to be careful about</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN=20
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