X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com ([209.85.220.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTPS id 5727627 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:55:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.180; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by vcbfw7 with SMTP id fw7so2206373vcb.25 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=bzUIVv01NjfYoWL+8sfxeLz/foDda+kGMr01DRjYkac=; b=tzFxzdjHWY1yjVeBhLYHKsx8ehttfZyWSI1jz1Qb6RimnGxhK/7bNn0vrcaWYyKvBP 7MisM7ua3JVtU/6EJuhzw50Va2vM9a4r8BHxZ4N1GmaUEfyT6AaAHkplU12rWaRy0TPH BPmZo6cIVlkxz3wS8LorS0DbFsrZPYTEPenrSrKRmaHqHCmxrYL0tzYJhH2tuVxoLaGX HPrsJyf+6IzJ3UtzxDhBDi+tbvkBua+chte0hz/LgqUQB7+payO3IUu/f5qP7SEnRPjb 2y2l+UPnI7M9OqM4OyQ6fKQOYw5Yz7mOwHMyvH1/+1tzekv/FR52+8gpUOx9tQta1LAJ zg2w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.32.233 with SMTP id m9mr4538108vdi.88.1345830903028; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.59.0.129 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:55:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:55:02 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d2360e71a2804c806ac4c --bcaec51d2360e71a2804c806ac4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All turbo rotaries should have intercoolers (whether in the air or on the ground). The purpose of the intercooler is to remove the heat added by the turbo. As a result they are actually more necessary at high altitude than low because the turbo is working harder. At 18,000 feet, a turbo boosting just to sea level pressure is working harder than a turbo at sea level boosting 10 PSI, and the air coming out of it will be the same temperature, or hotter. On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > Hay Chris, I'm not turbo savy, but do you realy need an > intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,, the air is pretty cold already, the > racers on the ground need them because the air near the ground is hot, not > at 6000+++ feet. just a thought & will be watching, a turbo instead of a > muffler I'm thinking may be a better choice. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary > Lansing MI. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Chris Barber" > > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: > [FlyRotary]Turboquestion. > > > Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I have > as I wanted to start low. > I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or leak I > could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove it > and see if I get good boost > > > > Sent from my iPhone 4 > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" > wrote: > > Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate > spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as > the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo. > Chris? > > Chrissi & Randi > > www.CozyGirrrl.com * > *ClickBonds 10/$7.50 > CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware > Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop > > In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > andrew@martinag.com.au writes: > > Chris > > if your blow off valve is before the intercooler, it may just be opening > too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing all your air to vent, then the > engine would act as NA but with the intercooler as a added restriction. try > a heavier spring. > > Andrew > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber wrote: > >> Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified my concern after my cooling >> skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full power. >> >> Trying to determine where the restriction is now. >> >> You are the best. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> >> On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" >> wrote: >> >> > Chris, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your >> coolant/oil temps. As you know take-off is the worst combination of low >> cooling air mass flow and max engine temperature due to WOT. >> > >> > You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power you now >> have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. So I would be >> certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off until >> you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook your >> engine during your first real Turbo climb out. >> > >> > I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as quick as >> possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. So that generally >> meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level >> off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. Then I could resume climb with >> cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. >> Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different >> platform and cooling set up. >> > >> > Ed >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------- >> > From: "Chris Barber" >> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM >> > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question. >> > >> >> As I have mentioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings >> regarding my manifold pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting >> quite low mp as I add power to higher rpm. >> >> >> >> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is that as I add >> power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in my >> wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more. >> >> >> >> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the turbo >> hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed the >> turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results >> currently confuse me. >> >> >> >> With the turbo hooked up I am getting >> >> >> >> RPM. MP inches >> >> 2000 - 14.0 >> >> 3000 - 15.5 >> >> 4000 - 19.3 >> >> 5000 - 21.6 >> >> 5700 - 24.5 (topped out) >> >> >> >> With the turbo removed. >> >> >> >> 2000 - 15.8 >> >> 3000 - 15.3 >> >> 4000 - 19.7 >> >> 5000 - 24.8 >> >> 5833 - 29.8 >> >> >> >> Is this indicative of restriction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter >> cooler? A dirty air filter? A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the >> air pressure getting to the intake. Or???? >> >> >> >> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check and provide. I am >> just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only have 1.6 hours >> in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and input. >> >> >> >> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doesn't seem >> right/comfortable. >> >> >> >> Thanks folks. >> >> >> >> Chris Barber >> >> Houston >> >> Velocity SE >> >> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4 >> >> -- >> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> >> No virus found in this message. >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: >> 08/20/12 >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > > -- > Regards > > Andrew Martin > Martin Ag > 275 Newmarracarra Rd > Moonyoonooka WA 6532 > > 0427477144 > 08 99241145 > andrew@martinag.com.au > > --bcaec51d2360e71a2804c806ac4c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All turbo rotaries should have intercoolers (whether in the air or on the g= round).=A0 The purpose of the intercooler is to remove the heat added by th= e turbo.=A0 As a result they are actually more necessary at high altitude t= han low because the turbo is working harder.=A0 At 18,000 feet, a turbo boo= sting just to sea level pressure is working harder than a turbo at sea leve= l boosting 10 PSI, and the air coming out of it will be the same temperatur= e, or hotter.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:45 PM, <ho= ursaway1@comcast.net> wrote:
Hay Chris,=A0 I'm = not turbo savy, but do you realy need an intercooler,,,,,,,at altitude,,,,,= , the air is pretty cold already, the racers on the ground need them becaus= e the air near the ground is hot, not at 6000+++ feet.=A0 just a thought &a= mp; will be watching, a turbo instead of a muffler I'm thinking may be = a better choice.=A0 David R. Cook=A0 RV6A=A0 Rotary Lansing MI.

From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:49:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Check Temps on Climbout was e: [FlyRotary]Turboquestion.


Yes. That is correct. The 3lb spring limits boost it is the lowest I h= ave as I wanted to start low.=A0
I checked my intercooler and it is flowing well. No obstruction or lea= k I could find. It may be the location of the blow of valve. I will remove = it and see if I get good boost



Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com> wrote:
Andrew, I believe the 3 lb spring he is talking about is the wastegate= spring, this limits boost, the 3 lb one is the lowest boost available, as = the springs get stronger the more exhaust is forced through the turbo.
Chris?
=A0
Chrissi & Randi

www.CozyGirrrl.com
= ClickBonds 10/$7.50
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwo= men, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
=A0
In a message dated 8/22/2012 6:08:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, andrew@martinag.com.= au writes:
Chris

if your blow off valve is before the int= ercooler, it may just be opening too soon with that 3lb spring and allowing= all your air to vent, then the engine would act as NA but with the interco= oler as a added restriction. try a heavier spring.

Andrew

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.ne= t> wrote:
Thanks Ed. I am pleased you verified = my concern after my cooling skyrocketing yesterday when I went to full powe= r.

Trying to determine where the restriction is now.

You are the be= st.

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:48 PM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Chri= s, One thing to be checking on your next take off is your coolant/oil temps= . =A0As you know take-off is the worst combination of low cooling air mass = flow and max engine temperature due to WOT.
>
> You would be surprised how quickly (with the additional power = you now have) you will exceed your cooling limits if not careful. =A0So I w= ould be certain to check the temps at a frequent rate on your next take-off= until you know how the system is going to react - hate to see you cook you= r engine during your first real Turbo climb out.
>
> I find for my Rv-6A that I needed to get to 120 mph IAS as qui= ck as possible to get on the good side of the cooling curve. =A0So that gen= erally meant take off - get safely above surround obstructions, then level = off/reduce climb until airspeed hit 120. =A0Then I could resume climb with = cooling gradually bring the temps down as altitude and airflow increased. = =A0Your sweet spot airspeed would undoubtedly be different given different = platform and cooling set up.
>
> Ed
>
> -------------------------------------------= -------
> From: "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:17 PM
> To: "Rotary motors = in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbo question.
>
>> As I have men= tioned I have had what I think are incongruent readings regarding my manifo= ld pressure (mp)and engine rpm. It seems I am getting quite low mp as I add= power to higher rpm.
>>
>> I am not well versed in this area but my thought is th= at as I add power, even with slight boost (currently using a 3 lb spring in= my wastegate) eventually my mp should raise a bit more.
>>
>> Today I did some static test. I recorded engine RPM with the =A0tu= rbo hooked up and recorded the mp at 1000 rpm increments. Then I removed th= e turbo plumbing from my intake and recorded the same info My results curre= ntly confuse me.
>>
>> With the turbo hooked up I am getting
>>
&= gt;> RPM. =A0 MP inches
>> 2000 - 14.0
>> 3000 - 15.5<= br>>> 4000 - 19.3
>> 5000 - 21.6
>> 5700 - 24.5 (to= pped out)
>>
>> With the turbo removed.
>>
>> 2000 -= 15.8
>> 3000 - 15.3
>> 4000 - 19.7
>> 5000 - 24= .8
>> 5833 - 29.8
>>
>> Is this indicative of re= striction in my plumbing? Perhaps in the inter cooler? A dirty air filter? = A bad pop off valve or a leak not allowing the air pressure getting to the = intake. Or????
>>
>> I am uncertain what other permitters I need to check a= nd provide. I am just starting my diagnosis in my Phase One testing. I only= have 1.6 hours in the air so far. I value ya'll's direction and in= put.
>>
>> Heck, perhaps this is working properly but it just doe= sn't seem right/comfortable.
>>
>> Thanks folks.
&= gt;>
>> Chris Barber
>> Houston
>> Velocity S= E
>> Rotary 13b turbo (?) :-)
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this m= essage.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Vers= ion: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5211 - Release Date: 08/20/12
>>
>
> --
> Homepage: =A0http://ww= w.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lan= caironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Ar= chive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrota= ry/List.html



--
Regards
=
Andrew Martin
Martin Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 6= 532

0427477144
08 99241145
andrew@mar= tinag.com.au

--bcaec51d2360e71a2804c806ac4c--