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Sat, 04 Jun 2011 11:09:02 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/570 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 11:09:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-52902249-1307210942=:74701" --0-52902249-1307210942=:74701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=0A=A0=A0 Sadly still have all my time taken up with my caretaker = =0Aduties..............My engine is still bolted to my=0Aengine stand......= ...........Have removed the "Mistral" back-plate temporarily =0Ato ship to = Jarrett Johnson=0Aso he can scan and digitize it and a "Renesis" front cove= r to "Marry" the two =0Atogether (to=A0allow the use=0Aof the "Renesis" wat= er-pump if possible)............Renesis pumps sell for less =0Athan $100.00= (I bought 2=0Afor about $40.00 each) although the "Mazmart" impeller upgra= de like you have is =0Adesirable..........The=0A"Mistral" water-pump cost m= e over $1000.00 (with 10% discount) and now is =0A"Unobtainium"............= =0A=0A=A0 The hope is to produce an affordable=A0Back-plate/Engine mount th= at will bolt =0Adirectly to a "Dyna-focal"=0AType 1 , 30 degree=A0mount rin= g that is common to "Lycoming" 0-360 and most 0-320 =0Aengines that=A0will= =0Abolt to the Renesis 13B ,=A01993-2002 13BREW (US & "J" spec imports)=A0a= nd Cosmo 13B =0A& 20B.......=0A=0A=A0 Jarrett has the talent , equipment an= d desire to do this if it is=A0possible (He =0Awants to put a 20B in his=0A= dream machine)............Time will tell................=A0=0A=0A=0AKelly T= royer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Sat, June 4, 2011 12:22:10 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: [LML= ] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine=0A=0AThanks Kelly. =A0How are you progressing w= ith your early runs? =A0 =0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 11:24 AM= , Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0AMark,=0A>=A0=A0 Again "Well Sai= d" !!.........................<:)=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2= " (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_B= ackplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A_= _______________________________=0AFrom: Mark Steitle = =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Sa= t, June 4, 2011 10:54:54 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Fwd: [LML] Re: L-IV Cho= ice of Engine=0A>=0A>Guys,=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>Here's the latest posting on the = Lancair list relating to alternative (rotary) =0A>engines. =A0It will likel= y be my last posting as I feel that my time would be =0A>better spent talki= ng to my dog.=0A>=0A>=0A>Mark=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>---------- Forwarded message --= --------=0A>From: Mark Steitle =0A>Date: Sat, Jun 4, 20= 11 at 10:51 AM=0A>Subject: Re: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine=0A>To: Lanca= ir Mailing List =0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Gary,=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>= Since I have actually completed a successful rotary installation, I would l= ike =0A>to comment on the rotary engine option. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>First, addre= ssing the negatives,=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>1) =A0Apex seals - The apex seal issue h= as been solved long ago and is no longer =0A>an issue, unless the engine is= over-boosted and allowed to detonate; if this is =0A>a concern, do what th= e boosted guys do and go with the=A0oversized 3mm apex seals. =0A>=A0Even i= f the apex seal issue was still an issue, losing an apex seal is =0A>equiva= lent to burning an exhaust valve. =A0The engine will still run, just be dow= n =0A>on power.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>2) Insurance - =A0Obtaining full-coverage ins= urance has not been an issue for my =0A>ES,=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>3) Complex System= s - Not sure what you're referring with complex systems =0A>(running EFI wh= ich also handles ignition); =A0Yes, I'm running 6 coils, but that =0A>provi= des redundancy, also running dual alternators/batteries (Z-14 design) same = =0A>as many others. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>=A04) =A0weight is virtually the same as= IO-540 (to the best of my recollection, my =0A>ES weighed in at =A02080#),= =0A>=0A>5) Cooling drag - I will concede this one, but this can be minimize= d with =0A>careful cooling design and the use of cowl flaps. =A0The P-51, a= nd others, were =0A>liquid cooled. =A0As I recall, the Voyager was liquid c= ooled and it made it around =0A>the globe non-stop. =A0 =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>5) R= otary engine's exhaust is loud - Agree, but this can be handled with a =0A>= turbo, a good muffler, sound insulation, and/or an ANR headset.=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>As for the rotary's positives:=0A>=0A>=0A>1) =A0The rotary is the e= pitome of the KISS principle. =A0The 20B (3-rotor) rotary =0A>engine has on= ly 4 moving parts (3 cast iron rotors and an eccentric shaft). =0A>=A0There= 's no camshaft, cam gears, rocker arms, intake or exhaust valves, =0A>pushr= ods, lifters, valve springs, keepers, connecting rods, caps, or bolts, =0A>= piston pins, etc. =A0- If it isn't there, it can't break.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>2) = 350hp (n/a p-port 3-rotor)=0A>=0A>=0A>3) While parts are not exactly cheap = (by automotive standards), they are much =0A>cheaper than certified a/c par= ts. =A0The typical overhaul cost for a rotary engine =0A>is less than the c= ost of one jug for a certified engine.=0A>=0A>=0A>4) Millions of rotary car= s have been built; the rotary engine is well proven =0A>technology.=0A>=0A>= =0A>5) Cruise Fuel burn is for my p-ported 3-rotor is14.5-15 gph, 23 gph in= climb =0A>mode. =A0However, the rotary can burn mo-gas.=0A>=0A>=0A>6) No c= oncern with shock cooling. =A0Just pull the throttle and descend, no =0Awor= ry.=0A>=0A>=0A>7) No hot-start issues. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>8) Comes stock with 2= plugs/rotor, providing redundancy=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>The stock rotary engine re= dlines at 9000 rpm. =A0I typically cruise at 5200 rpm. =0A>=A0Since the rot= ors turn at 1/3 crank speed, the rotors are only turning 1733 rpm =0A>in cr= uise. =A0If/when I want to go faster, I run it at 5900 rpm, the point on th= e =0A>rpm curve where there is the least amount of bearing load. =A0Even at= 5900 rpm, =0A>the rotors are turning less than 2000 rpm.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>I'l= l be the first to admit that the rotary route is not for everybody, and I'm= =0A>not trying to convince anyone to go down this path. =A0Personally, I'm= extremely =0A>pleased with my choice of engines and plan on flying it for = many years to come. =0A>=A0All I ask is that it is given a fair evaluation.= =A0 =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Mark S.=0A>Austin, TX=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sat, Jun 4, 201= 1 at 8:52 AM, Gary Casey wrote:=0A>=0A>Lot's of inte= resting comments on the subject of alternate engines.=A0 I was =0A>convince= d I was going to use an automotive V-8 at one time, but the last straws =0A= >were the difficulty (or impossibility) of getting insurance and the low (o= r =0A>impossibility) of resae value.=A0 As someone said, the resale value w= ould likely =0A>be the same as an aircraft without an engine.=A0 And my ana= lysis showed that the =0A>installed cost would be about the same (or more)= =A0then for an aircraft engine.=A0 =0A>But the internals of any of these en= gines are robust and should=A0able to tolerate =0A>high continuous power.= =A0 My conclusions - opinions of the disadvantages:=0A>>=A0=0A>>V-8 with re= duction gear:=0A>>Heavy - about 150 pound penalty=0A>>Complex installation = and systems=0A>>Slight fuel consumption penalty=0A>>=A0=0A>>V-8 engine dire= ct drive turbocharged:=0A>>Heavy - about 75 pound penalty=0A>>Complex insta= llation and systems=0A>>=A0=0A>>Rotary engine:=0A>>Very complex installatio= n and systems=0A>>Heavy - up to 50 pound penalty=0A>>Potentially fragile ap= ex seals=0A>>Hgh cooling drag=0A>>Noisy=0A>>Significant fuel consumption pe= nalty increases the weight penalty=0A>>=A0=0A>>Turbine engine:=0A>>High ini= tial cost=0A>>High fuel consumption negates any weight savings=0A>>=A0=0A>>= Misc. opinions:=A0 The liquid-cooled V-8 dates back to about 1918 when Chev= rolet =0A>>built the first mass-produced one, so it's technology is even=A0= older than the =0A>>air-cooled engine's "30's technology" that someone ment= ioned.=0A>>=A0Gary Casey=0A>=0A>=0A --0-52902249-1307210942=:74701 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Mark,
=0A
 
=0A
  = Sadly still have all my time taken up with my caretaker duties............= ..My engine is still bolted to my
=0A
engine stand................= .Have removed the "Mistral" back-plate temporarily to ship to Jarrett Johns= on
so he can scan and digitize it and a "Renesis" front cover to "Marry"= the two together (to allow the use
=0A
of the "Renesis" wate= r-pump if possible)............Renesis pumps sell for less than $100.00 (I = bought 2
=0A
for about $40.00 each) although the "Mazmart" impelle= r upgrade like you have is desirable..........The
=0A
"Mistral" wa= ter-pump cost me over $1000.00 (with 10% discount) and now is "Unobtainium"= ............
=0A
 
=0A
  The hope is to produce= an affordable Back-plate/Engine mount that will bolt directly to a "D= yna-focal"
=0A
Type 1 , 30 degree mount ring that is common t= o "Lycoming" 0-360 and most 0-320 engines that will
=0A
bolt = to the Renesis 13B , 1993-2002 13BREW (US & "J" spec imports) = ;and Cosmo 13B & 20B.......
=0A
 
=0A
  Jar= rett has the talent , equipment and desire to do this if it is possibl= e (He wants to put a 20B in his
=0A
dream machine)............Time= will tell................ 
=0A
 
=0A
 =0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"= RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS= "_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Sent: Sat= , June 4, 2011 12:22:10 PM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine
=
Thanks Kelly.  How are you progressing with your early runs?  = ; =0A

=0A
Mark

=0A
On Sat,= Jun 4, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Mark,
=0A
 &= nbsp; Again "Well Said" !!.........................<:)
 
= =0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_T= O4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:<= /B> Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com= >
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, June 4, 2011 10:54:54 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fwd: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine
=
Guys,  =0A

=0A
Here's the latest posting = on the Lancair list relating to alternative (rotary) engines.  It will= likely be my last posting as I feel that my time would be better spent tal= king to my dog.

=0A
Mark 
=0A

=0A
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Jun 4, 2011 a= t 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: L-IV Choice of Engine
To: Lancair M= ailing List <lml@lancaironline.net= >


Hi Gary,  =0A

=0A
Since I have a= ctually completed a successful rotary installation, I would like to comment= on the rotary engine option.  
=0A

=0A
First, = addressing the negatives, 
=0A

=0A
1)  Ape= x seals - The apex seal issue has been solved long ago and is no longer an = issue, unless the engine is over-boosted and allowed to detonate; if this i= s a concern, do what the boosted guys do and go with the oversized 3mm= apex seals.  Even if the apex seal issue was still an issue, losing a= n apex seal is equivalent to burning an exhaust valve.  The engine wil= l still run, just be down on power. 
=0A

=0A
2)= Insurance -  Obtaining full-coverage insurance has not been an issue = for my ES, 
=0A

=0A
3) Complex Systems - Not su= re what you're referring with complex systems (running EFI which also handl= es ignition);  Yes, I'm running 6 coils, but that provides redundancy,= also running dual alternators/batteries (Z-14 design) same as many others.=  
=0A

=0A
 4)  weight is virtually t= he same as IO-540 (to the best of my recollection, my ES weighed in at &nbs= p;2080#),
=0A
 
=0A
5) Cooling drag - I will concede= this one, but this can be minimized with careful cooling design and the us= e of cowl flaps.  The P-51, and others, were liquid cooled.  As I= recall, the Voyager was liquid cooled and it made it around the globe non-= stop.    
=0A

=0A
5) Rotary engine's exhau= st is loud - Agree, but this can be handled with a turbo, a good muffler, s= ound insulation, and/or an ANR headset.
=0A

=0A

=
=0A
As for the rotary's positives:
=0A

=0A1)  The rotary is the epitome of the KISS principle.  The 20B (3= -rotor) rotary engine has only 4 moving parts (3 cast iron rotors and an ec= centric shaft).  There's no camshaft, cam gears, rocker arms, intake o= r exhaust valves, pushrods, lifters, valve springs, keepers, connecting rod= s, caps, or bolts, piston pins, etc.  - If it isn't there, it can't br= eak. 
=0A

=0A
2) 350hp (n/a p-port 3-rotor)=0A

=0A
3) While parts are not exactly cheap (by automo= tive standards), they are much cheaper than certified a/c parts.  The = typical overhaul cost for a rotary engine is less than the cost of one jug = for a certified engine.
=0A

=0A
4) Millions of rotar= y cars have been built; the rotary engine is well proven technology.
= =0A

=0A
5) Cruise Fuel burn is for my p-ported 3-rotor is= 14.5-15 gph, 23 gph in climb mode.  However, the rotary can burn mo-ga= s.
=0A

=0A
6) No concern with shock cooling.  J= ust pull the throttle and descend, no worry.
=0A

=0A7) No hot-start issues.  
=0A

=0A
8) Comes sto= ck with 2 plugs/rotor, providing redundancy 
=0A

= =0A
The stock rotary engine redlines at 9000 rpm.  I typically cru= ise at 5200 rpm.  Since the rotors turn at 1/3 crank speed, the rotors= are only turning 1733 rpm in cruise.  If/when I want to go faster, I = run it at 5900 rpm, the point on the rpm curve where there is the least amo= unt of bearing load.  Even at 5900 rpm, the rotors are turning less th= an 2000 rpm. 
=0A

=0A
I'll be the first to admi= t that the rotary route is not for everybody, and I'm not trying to convinc= e anyone to go down this path.  Personally, I'm extremely pleased with= my choice of engines and plan on flying it for many years to come.  A= ll I ask is that it is given a fair evaluation.    
=0A
=
=0A
Mark S.
=0A
Austin, TX
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A


=0A
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 a= t 8:52 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Lot's of interesting comment= s on the subject of alternate engines.  I was convinced I was going to= use an automotive V-8 at one time, but the last straws were the difficulty= (or impossibility) of getting insurance and the low (or impossibility) of = resae value.  As someone said, the resale value would likely be the sa= me as an aircraft without an engine.  And my analysis showed that the = installed cost would be about the same (or more) then for an aircraft = engine.  But the internals of any of these engines are robust and shou= ld able to tolerate high continuous power.  My conclusions - opin= ions of the disadvantages:

=0A

 

=0A

V-8 with reduction gear= :

=0A

Heavy - about 150 pound penalty

=0A

Complex installation an= d systems

=0A

Slight fuel consumption penalty

=0A

 

=0AV-8 engine direct drive turbocharged:

=0A

Heavy - about 75 pound pena= lty

=0A

Complex installation and systems

=0A

 

=0A

Rota= ry engine:

=0A

Very complex installation and systems

=0A

Heavy - = up to 50 pound penalty

=0A

Potentially fragile apex seals

=0A

Hgh= cooling drag

=0A

Noisy

=0A

Significant fuel consumption penalty = increases the weight penalty

=0A

 

=0A

Turbine engine:

= =0A

High initial cost

=0A

High fuel consumption negates any weight s= avings

=0A

 

=0A

Misc. opinions:  The liquid-cooled V-8= dates back to about 1918 when Chevrolet built the first mass-produced one,= so it's technology is even older than the air-cooled engine's "30's t= echnology" that someone mentioned.

=0A

 

=0A

Gary Casey


=


=
--0-52902249-1307210942=:74701--