X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.100.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4969571 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 06 May 2011 22:45:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.100.31; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p472iUAi020863 for ; Fri, 6 May 2011 22:44:30 -0400 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.f8a.832d2b6 (45501) for ; Fri, 6 May 2011 22:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.97]) by cia-mc08.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMC088-d3cd4dc4b20826; Fri, 06 May 2011 22:44:26 -0400 Received: from Webmail-d112 (webmail-d112.sim.aol.com [205.188.171.229]) by smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMC017-d3cd4dc4b20826; Fri, 06 May 2011 22:44:24 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 22:44:24 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 69.84.254.253 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDDA77CF42C8A4_1C6C_4D59B_Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33646-STANDARD Received: from 69.84.254.253 by Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com (205.188.171.229) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 06 May 2011 22:44:24 -0400 Message-Id: <8CDDA77CF36E1BF-1C6C-2BDF5@Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDDA77CF42C8A4_1C6C_4D59B_Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" The way I have my mount set up is with a Shertz beam at the flywheel end= of the engine, with the weight of the engine downward on that, using two= of my isolation mounts, and then one mount on each side of the water pump= with the bolts running longitudinally. I guess my mounts are not stresse= d all that much in my case. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 7:16 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts Brian, =20 I am using a set of the Mcmaster Carr mounts on my plane and I sold my set= of dynafocal mount rubber because I wouldn=E2=80=99t need them. There is= all the difference in the world in the two types of mounts. If you consi= der the fact that the entire engine and prop assembly is cantilevered out= off of the dynafocal mount and must carry 5 or 6 Gs you will begin to und= erstand why there is such a difference in price. =20 I shudder to think how many thousands of lbs each of those rubber bushings= has to withstand! They are damn tough! =20 Bill B =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 7:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts =20 Ok, so those don't fit in the cups of the dynafocal mounts. Maybe there is= a way to make some sort of adapter that fits into the cups on the dynafoc= al in order to use the Mcmaster-Carr mounts. It might be worth it due to= the price difference- about $250-$300 for the full on aircraft rubber pie= ces versus $23.80 for the Mcmaster- Carr pieces. =20 Brian Trubee =20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 2:06 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts Brian, I checked out all of McMaster Carr's offerings and non will fit or repl= ace the Dynafocal type mounts..........I know that the bottom plate type of mount= does use these type of cushion/isolators............ =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 3:42:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] vibration isolators/motor mounts I'm telling you- go to McMaster- Carr. They have Barry shock mounts that= are just like the ones on our aircraft, except the price is a little less= - $5.95 each. That's what I used on my plane, and they work great.=20 =20 Looky here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/1363/=3Dc6vjlj =20 Bottom of the page- 6309K35A- I used the 240 lb. Version.=20 =20 Brian Trubee =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Marc Wiese To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 12:25 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed) Kelly, My Bad. Been working on a friends twin commanche too much. The motor mount= is from a Cardinal RG nose retract and uses the Lyc IO360 A1B6 200 hp ang= le valve cylinders. So it=E2=80=99s a type 1. Maybe we can use it to test fit up that new back/front plate!! BTW, those mm shock donuts are costly for most of these systems. We got to= find cheaper compliant donuts. Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 1:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed) =20 Marc, The Mistral backplate is for a Dynafocal Type 1 , 30 degree mount= ring=20 which is standard for most Lycoming 0-320 & all 0 & I0-360 engines (that= I=20 am aware of))..............The Dynafocal Type 2 , 18 degree mount ring was designed for a specific 0-320 engine installed in the Twin Comanche with an extra 2.5 inch extended prop hub..............This put the engine CG ah= ead=20 the 30 degree mount focal point of approx 14.25 inches so the 18 degree mount was designed to again put the engine CG slightly behind the 18 degre= e focal point.............If your Cardinal has the type 2 , 18 degree mount= then it=20 probably has a 0-320 with the extra pop hub length..........If not maybe= Cessna got a good deal on this particular 0-320 engine model back then.........If= by chance your Cardinal has an 0-360 then all bets are off as I haven't heard of a 0-360 model with the Type 2 , 18 degree mount............<:) =20 As for the 93-95 13BREW front side plate Bryan may have found us an unserviceable one............We will see............As many of these engne= s that have been over-heated , over-boosted and over-reved we should be able to= =20 come up with a junk one............. =20 Thanks Marc, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 From: Marc Wiese To: keltro@att.net Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:40:02 PM Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed) Kelly, I also have a type II dynafocal engine mount (from a Cardinal RG!)=E2=80= =A6. Marc=20 =20 From: Marc Wiese [mailto:cardmarc@charter.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:37 PM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft'; 'keltro@att.net' Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed) =20 I may have one of those 13Brew =E2=80=9Cfront plates=E2=80=9D, but it is= =E2=80=9Cuseable=E2=80=9D. I too would like a dynafocal type II mount=E2=80=A6..for both of my 13Brew= s and the 20B=E2=80=A6 Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 6:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed) =20 To The Rotary Group, Yes I know I am a troublemaker (too much computer time available with= my day job) and some of you are probably sick of all my posts !!.........= ....."But" with that being said one of our group is seriously considering= the development of a "Mistral" type back-plate to allow the use of a standard "Lycoming" "Dynafocal type 1" en= gine mount ring that will be a virtual "Bolt-on" to the 93-95 13BREW , Cosmo 13B & 20B and the Renesis 13B Rotarys.............Sev= eral builders and potentials have indicated they would be interested in such a back-plate (including me)............I have= one of the few "Mistral" back-plates that ended up in the hands of experimenters (waited 2 years for it)..........It is severely ove= r engineered for our use (and overpriced) and has many features we do not need........... =20 If you have followed "Back-plate" string of posts recently you know th= at Jarrett Johnson one our group with aspirations to install a Cosmo 20B in his project started the discussion first about an= developing an intake manifold for 13B & 20B Rotarys (which needs to be done also) then I jumped in and said that a common engi= ne mount design might also be needed and if you have been reading the posts lately a lot of info has been kicked aroun= d about the various Rotarys and what it will take to "Marry" the "Mistral"= back-plate with a "RX8 "Renesis" water-pump (with the magic of digital sc= anning & CAD) to design=20 such a back-plate......... =20 Those that have been on the Rotary forum for several years may rememb= er Jarrett posting his trials and tribulations in building a huge CAM mill (at home).............He is a commercial designer= with the talent and equipment (including foundry) to pull this off............I have offered my "Mistral" back-plate to be= scanned (He trying to find someone here in Okla to do the job) and I also have a "Renesis" front cover to scan............What= we really need now is a 93-95 13BREW front side housing (unusable condition preferred as long as front side is undamaged)= to put in his hands as this is what the back-plate will bolt to..............If someone in the group has an unusable 93-95 13= BREW front side housing they will donate I will pay to have it shipped to Jarrett..............You may contact me off the foru= m if you would prefer..........I have no horse in this race I would just like to see such a product be made available to the group....= ...... =20 keltro@att.net =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 11:45:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate Jarrett, =20 Will be a good idea to scan both the Mistral and Renesis housings.....= ........You really need=20 a 93-95 13BREW (preferably) or Cosmo 20B front housing to scan............= .Most of my 13B engines are 86-91.............My Cosmo 13B is adaptable but lacks some of= the machined bolt and stud pads of the 13BREW, Renesis or Cosmo 20B front side housing which= you need to make allowances for on the redesigned back-plate if you want it to fit= all three versions of these engines..................Throw this out to the group and see if some= one has a 1993-95 13BREW front side hsg (need not be usable) they would donate or lend to th= e project......... =20 You really need this front side housing in front of you......... Even= with all the scans nothing=20 beats having the actual hardware............IMHO =20 Best Regards, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 From: H & J Johnson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 10:43:03 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate Evening Kelly, so just thought I'd send a note w/ an update. I did find a= fella in Tulsa who has access to a laser scanner. He's getting me some pr= icing on what it would cost to get the job done. I'm thinking it might be a good= idea to get both the Mistral housing as well as a Renisis Front Cover sca= nned?=20 I'd like to get an Iron [preferably the side that mates to the front cover= ] scanned as well but don't know if you've got one handy [as in, not 'in'= an engine]. I could always=20 do it here in time but that might take a bit before I get my hands on one= that is not in an engine. =20 I'll keep you posted as this goes and see where we get. Jarrett Johnson=20 www.innovention-tech.com=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ ; Archive and UnSub: http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ----------MB_8CDDA77CF42C8A4_1C6C_4D59B_Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
The way I have my mount set up is with a Shertz beam at the flywheel= end of the engine, with the weight of the engine downward on that, using= two of my isolation mounts, and then one mount on each side of the water= pump with the bolts running longitudinally.  I guess my mounts are= not stressed all that much in my case.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 7:16 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts

Brian,
 
I am using a set of= the Mcmaster Carr mounts on my plane and I sold my set of dynafocal mount= rubber because I wouldn=E2=80=99t need them.  There is all the diffe= rence in the world in the two types of mounts.  If you consider the= fact that the entire engine and prop assembly is cantilevered out off of= the dynafocal mount and must carry 5 or 6 Gs you will begin to understand= why there is such a difference in price.
 
I shudder to think= how many thousands of lbs each of those rubber bushings has to withstand!=   They are damn tough!
 
Bill B
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of b= ktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011= 7:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= vibration isolators/motor mounts
 
Ok, so those don'= t fit in the cups of the dynafocal mounts. Maybe there is a way to make so= me sort of adapter that fits into the cups on the dynafocal in order to us= e the Mcmaster-Carr mounts. It might be worth it due to the price differen= ce- about $250-$300 for the full on aircraft rubber pieces versus $23.80= for the Mcmaster- Carr pieces.
 
Brian Trubee
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 2:06 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: vibration isolators/motor mounts
Brian,
   I ch= ecked out all of McMaster Carr's offerings and non will fit or replace the=
Dynafocal type mo= unts..........I know that the bottom plate type of mount does<= /FONT>
use these type of= cushion/isolators............
 
Thanks,
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA= JD2" (Eventually)"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4= E50 Turbo
 
 
From: "bktrub@aol.com" &l= t;bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 3:4= 2:20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] vibra= tion isolators/motor mounts
I'm telling you-= go to McMaster- Carr. They have Barry shock mounts that are just like the= ones on our aircraft, except the price is a little less- $5.95 each. That= 's what I used on my plane, and they work great.
 
 
Bottom of the pag= e- 6309K35A- I used the 240 lb. Version.
 
Brian Trubee

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 12:25 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed)
Kelly,
My Bad. Bee= n working on a friends twin commanche too much. The motor mount is from a= Cardinal RG nose retract and uses the Lyc IO360 A1B6 200 hp angle valve= cylinders. So it=E2=80=99s a type 1.
Maybe we ca= n use it to test fit up that new back/front plate!!
BTW, those= mm shock donuts are costly for most of these systems. We got to find chea= per compliant donuts.
Marc=
 
From: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf= Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011= 1:24 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Back-= plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed)
 
Marc,
   = ;    The Mistral backplate is for a Dynafocal Type 1= , 30 degree mount ring
which is standard= for most Lycoming 0-320 & all 0 & I0-360 engines= (that I
am aware of))....= ..........The Dynafocal Type 2 , 18 degree mount ring was
designed for a sp= ecific 0-320 engine installed in the Twin Comanche with
an extra 2.5 inch= extended prop hub..............This put the engine CG ahead
the 30 degree mou= nt focal point  of approx 14.25 inches so the 18 degree=
mount was designe= d to again put the engine CG slightly behind the 18 degree
focal point......= .......If your Cardinal has the type 2 , 18 degree  mount then= it
probably has a 0-= 320 with the extra pop hub length..........If not maybe Cessna
got a good deal= on this particular 0-320 engine model back then.........If by
chance your Cardi= nal has an 0-360 then all bets are off as I haven't heard
of a 0-360 model= with the Type 2 , 18 degree mount............<:)
 
   = ;  As for the 93-95 13BREW front side plate Bryan may have found us= an
unserviceable one= ............We will see............As many of these engnes that
have been ov= er-heated , over-boosted and over-reved we should be able to
come up with a ju= nk one.............=
 
Thanks Marc,
 
 Kelly Troye= r
"DYKE DELTA= JD2" (Eventually)"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4= E50 Turbo
 
 
From: Marc Wies= e <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: keltro@att.n= et
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 8:4= 0:02 PM
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary]= Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed)
Kelly,
I also have= a type II dynafocal engine mount (from a Cardinal RG!)=E2=80=A6.
Marc
 
From: Marc Wies= e [mailto:cardmarc@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 20= 11 8:37 PM
To: 'Rotary motors in airc= raft'; 'keltro@att.net'
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary]= Re: Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed)
 
I may have= one of those 13Brew =E2=80=9Cfront plates=E2=80=9D, but it is =E2=80=9Cus= eable=E2=80=9D.
I too would= like a dynafocal type II mount=E2=80=A6..for both of my 13Brews and the= 20B=E2=80=A6
Marc=
 
From: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf= Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Wednesday, May 04,= 2011 6:09 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Back-plate (93-95 Front Side Hsd Needed)
 
To The Rotary Gro= up,
   = ;  Yes I know I am a troublemaker (too much computer time available&n= bsp;with my day job) and some of you are probably sick of all my posts !!.= ............."But" with that being said one of our group is seriously= considering the development of a "Mistral" type
back-plate to all= ow the use of a standard "Lycoming" "Dynafocal type 1" engine mount ring= that will be a virtual "Bolt-on" to the
93-95 13BREW = ;, Cosmo 13B & 20B and the Renesis 13B Rotarys.............Several bui= lders and potentials have indicated they
would be interest= ed in such a back-plate (including me)............I have one of the few "M= istral" back-plates that ended up in the
hands of experime= nters (waited 2 years for it)..........It is severely over engineered for= our use (and overpriced) and has many
features we do no= t need...........<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
 
   = ; If you have followed "Back-plate" string of posts recently you know that= Jarrett Johnson one our group with aspirations to
install a Cosmo= 20B in his project started the discussion first about an developing an&nb= sp;intake manifold for 13B & 20B Rotarys
(which needs to= be done also) then I jumped in and said that a common engine mo= unt design might also be needed and if
you have been rea= ding the posts lately a lot of info has been kicked around about = ;the various Rotarys and what it will take to "Marry" the= "Mistral" back-plate with a "RX8 "Renesis" water-pump (with the magic of= digital scanning & CAD) to design
such a back-plate= .........
 
   = ;  Those that have been on the Rotary forum for several years may rem= ember Jarrett posting his trials and tribulations in
building a huge= CAM mill (at home).............He is a commercial designer with the talen= t and equipment (including foundry)
to pull this off.= ...........I have offered my "Mistral" back-plate to be scanned (He trying= to find someone here in Okla to do
the  job) an= d I also have a "Renesis" front cover to scan............What we really ne= ed now is a 93-95 13BREW front side
housing (unusable= condition preferred as long as front side is undamaged) to put in his han= ds as this is what the back-plate
will bolt to.....= .........If someone in the group has an unusable 93-95 13BREW front side= housing they will donate I will pay
to have it shippe= d to Jarrett..............You may contact me off the forum if you would pr= efer..........I have no horse in this race
I would just like= to see such a product be made available to the group..........
 
   = ; 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA= JD2" (Eventually)"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4= E50 Turbo
 
 
From: Kelly Tro= yer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 11:= 45:09 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Back-plate
Jarrett,
 
   = ; Will be a good idea to scan both the Mistral and Renesis housings.......= ......You really need
a 93-95 13BREW&nb= sp;(preferably) or Cosmo 20B front housing to scan.............Most of my= 13B
engines are 86-91= .............My Cosmo 13B is adaptable but lacks some of&nb= sp;the machined bolt
and stud pads of= the 13BREW, Renesis or Cosmo 20B front side housing which you need
to make allowance= s for on the redesigned back-plate if you want it to fit all three version= s of
these engines....= ..............Throw this out to the group and see if someone has a 1993-95=
13BREW front side= hsg (need not be usable) they would donate or lend to the project........= .
 
   You= really need this front side housing in front of you......... Even with al= l the scans nothing
beats having the= actual hardware............IMHO
 
Best Regards,
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA= JD2" (Eventually)"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4= E50 Turbo
 
 
From: H &= J Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 10:= 43:03 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Back-plate
Evening Kelly, so= just thought I'd send a note w/ an update. I did find a fella in Tulsa wh= o has access to a laser scanner. He's getting me some pricing
on what it would= cost to get the job done. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to get bot= h the Mistral housing as well as a Renisis Front Cover scanned?
I'd like to get&n= bsp;an Iron [preferably the side that mates to the front cover] = scanned as well but don't know if you've got one handy [as in, not 'in' an= engine]. I could always
do it here in tim= e but that might take a bit before I get my hands on one that is not= in an engine.
 
I'll keep you pos= ted as this goes and see where we get.

Jarrett Johnson
www.innovention-tech.com 
--    Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/  =
; ; Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironli=
ne.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
----------MB_8CDDA77CF42C8A4_1C6C_4D59B_Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com--