X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4963555 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 May 2011 18:13:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=2pE2Kh9Ye2ywHyyFZnC5ZQ1FvuPrdOtuPO5uN4ysVDU= c=1 sm=0 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=2fItiaoM1cxjsIEJkiwA:9 a=YH-4NwY90hpHYNWsMIQA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=go6fR7Ui1XrKu7E0:21 a=ruWIRQCW-1BKriVO:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=gz7gLGeO2uijAXQ6HswA:9 a=vBV7C4Mm6yrIZ2GMe6gA:7 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:64627] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id F9/F0-05159-FDADDBD4; Sun, 01 May 2011 22:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Ouch!!! Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:12:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01CC082B.47FF9590" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01CC082B.47FF9590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And some folks think me flying in an experimental aircraft behind and = experimental engine is dangerous - at least up here, few morons, even = fewer texting and the odds of him being behind me in my lane over taking = me are slim and (well for all realistic purposes) NONE. Sorry to hear about our accident, Lynn. Makes riding out a tornado at = Sun & Fun in the engine Tent seem tame by comparison. Hope you are feeling better soonest. Ed From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 2:30 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Timing Question for Tracy In a message dated 5/1/2011 1:28:10 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, = echristley@att.net writes: I threw my back out again last week, and the drugs have my sleeping = pattern all out of whack. Last night, I spent=20 another 6 hours researching what other people have done. One guy = reported that he started loosing performance with 2*=20 of split at speed. It was a boosted engine on a dyno. The problem I = have with the RX-7 forum is that they are all guys=20 looking for ridiculous performance running street engines on a dyno. = You have to read between the lines on all of it.=20 He didn't go any further than 2*, because of the performance drop off, = but that fits perfectly with what you're saying=20 about detonation. I'm going to go with what I've got now, but I'm seriously = reconsidering recasting the mount for the trailing VR sensor=20 to take out split as a near future project. There is more to fear = from detonation that a little more low end emissions. > =20 > That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size on the = plugs. Use=20 > plugs you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .010" to .015". > =20 > I used those even with an MSD and never had the problem. Remember = the=20 > rotor is hauling the mixture past the plugs like a freight train. > AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat range as NGK -10s. But usually=20 > $7.00 a box of 4 at Autozone. The open tip may get better cooling = than=20 > the NGKs Ok, Lynn. That deserves some type of reward for being a brain dead = simple solution to the root cause of the problem.=20 If you're not getting a spark because you've set up to much resistance = to the current flow, cut back on the resistance. I learned a bit more about this in the research last night. You have = a couple of very authoritative guys giving very=20 scientific and clear explanations of why using a split coil won't = work. You have another set of guys going, "Really?=20 I've been driving that setup for the past 6 months." The = differentiation seems to once again be boost. So I'm=20 confident that I can run the single coil set using the wasted spark on = the trailing, and I can just swap out the plugs=20 if it looks like I start missing when the engine is under load. The ultimate goal, though, is to have two totally independent ignition = sources. The MegaSquirt guys have worked out the=20 circuitry to run the stock coils or even COP. The problem I have with = that is that it puts ignition control back in the=20 little homemade box. I like the idea of having the two highly = resilient, time-proven ignition systems that will keep=20 right on clicking if my fancy little computer goes tits up. I'll = loose control of the advance, but I can be confident=20 that the limp-home mode of 25* will drag me to crash site. And that leads me to my next question. Operationally, what would be = the pros/cons of turning off the trailing during=20 cruise flight? Will it allow deposit to build up and ensure the plugs = are fouled if I ever do REALLY need them? Or is=20 it just putting a needless load on my generator in order to dump an = incremental amount of extra heat under the cowl? The wasted spark thing only works on the leading plugs. One or the other = trailing housing will have an apex seal between the plugs and will light = the next dose of mixture. So leading only for lost spark. Running without spark on the trailings just collects oil in the cavity = and ruins the plugs4 days ago . Been there, done that. Driver never = noticed. Because of "A" apex seal between the plugs the trailing spark must be = distributed, either mechanically with a distributor or crank angle = sensor or a system with two pickups 180 apart and one reluctor.=20 Then the lost spark leadings can be triggered from another system with = one pickup and two reluctors. Because it needs to fire twice per = revolution. 4 days ago the wife and I were waiting for a light to change at a 6 = lane highway in our pristine Dodge Minivan. A moron in a 6,000 pound = Trooper II hit is from behind at cruising speed. A witness said he had = his head down and was busy TEXTING............... .He fired us into rush = hour traffic to the curb lane on the other side, to the stunned surprise = of dozens of speeding drivers. Both seats failed. Seatbacks laid down = flat. Both went to the hospital. He has minimum legal insurance. I hired = a lawyer. grand Nephew of Woody Hayes. I am going to try for the = salvage. I can fix anything. That light had been green for them for a = long time and they were up to speed. Why we were not "T" boned with 6 = chances, escapes me.=20 I used to build totals, and this will just be another one. So My wife = can get a newer van and I can drive this one in a few months. Still = dizzy myself. No sleep yet. When I close my eyes it plays over again. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01CC082B.47FF9590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And some folks think me flying in an experimental aircraft behind = and=20 experimental engine is dangerous - at least up here, few morons, even = fewer=20 texting and the odds of him being behind me in my lane over taking me = are slim=20 and (well for all realistic purposes) NONE.
 
Sorry to hear about our accident, Lynn.  Makes riding out a = tornado at=20 Sun & Fun in the engine Tent seem tame by comparison.
 
Hope you are feeling better soonest.
 
Ed

Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 2:30 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Timing Question for = Tracy

 
 
In a message dated 5/1/2011 1:28:10 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, echristley@att.net writes:
I threw=20 my back out again last week, and the drugs have my sleeping pattern = all out of=20 whack.  Last night, I spent
another 6 hours researching what = other=20 people have done.  One guy reported that he started loosing = performance=20 with 2*
of split at speed.  It was a boosted engine on a = dyno. =20 The problem I have with the RX-7 forum is that they are all guys =
looking=20 for ridiculous performance running street engines on a dyno.  You = have to=20 read between the lines on all of it.
He didn't go any further than = 2*,=20 because of the performance drop off, but that fits perfectly with what = you're=20 saying
about detonation.

I'm going to go with what I've got = now,=20 but I'm seriously reconsidering recasting the mount for the trailing = VR sensor=20
to take out split as a near future project.  There is more to = fear=20 from detonation that a little more low end = emissions.

> =20
> That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size on = the plugs.=20 Use
> plugs you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .010" = to=20 .015".
> 
> I used those even with an MSD and never = had the=20 problem. Remember the
> rotor is hauling the mixture past the = plugs=20 like a freight train.
> AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat = range as=20 NGK -10s. But usually
> $7.00 a box of 4 at Autozone. The open = tip may=20 get better cooling than
> the NGKs

Ok, Lynn.  That = deserves=20 some type of reward for being a brain dead simple solution to the root = cause=20 of the problem.
If you're not getting a spark because you've set = up to=20 much resistance to the current flow, cut back on the = resistance.

I=20 learned a bit more about this in the research last night.  You = have a=20 couple of very authoritative guys giving very
scientific and clear = explanations of why using a split coil won't work.  You have = another set=20 of guys going, "Really?
I've been driving that setup for the past = 6=20 months."   The differentiation seems to once again be = boost. =20 So I'm
confident that I can run the single coil set using the = wasted spark=20 on the trailing, and I can just swap out the plugs
if it looks = like I=20 start missing when the engine is under load.

The ultimate goal, = though,=20 is to have two totally independent ignition sources.  The = MegaSquirt guys=20 have worked out the
circuitry to run the stock coils or even = COP. =20 The problem I have with that is that it puts ignition control back in = the=20
little homemade box.  I like the idea of having the two = highly=20 resilient, time-proven ignition systems that will keep
right on = clicking=20 if my fancy little computer goes tits up.  I'll loose control of = the=20 advance, but I can be confident
that the limp-home mode of 25* = will drag=20 me to crash site.

And that leads me to my next question. =20 Operationally, what would be the pros/cons of turning off the trailing = during=20
cruise flight?  Will it allow deposit to build up and ensure = the=20 plugs are fouled if I ever do REALLY need them?  Or is
it = just=20 putting a needless load on my generator in order to dump an = incremental amount=20 of extra heat under the cowl?
The wasted spark thing only works on the leading plugs. One or the = other=20 trailing housing will have an apex seal between the plugs and will light = the=20 next dose of mixture. So leading only for lost spark.
Running without spark on the trailings just collects oil in the = cavity and=20 ruins the plugs4 days ago . Been there, done that. Driver never = noticed.
 
Because of "A" apex seal between the plugs the trailing spark must = be=20 distributed, either mechanically with a distributor or crank angle = sensor or a=20 system with two pickups 180 apart and one reluctor.
 
Then the lost spark leadings can be triggered from another system = with one=20 pickup and two reluctors. Because it needs to fire twice per = revolution.
4 days=20 ago the wife and I were waiting for a light to change at a 6 lane = highway=20 in our pristine Dodge Minivan. A moron in a 6,000 pound Trooper II hit = is from=20 behind at cruising speed. A witness said he had his head down and was = busy=20 TEXTING............... .He fired us into rush hour = traffic to the=20 curb lane on the other side, to the stunned surprise of dozens of=20 speeding drivers. Both seats  failed. Seatbacks laid down = flat. Both=20 went to the hospital. He has minimum legal insurance. I hired a = lawyer. grand=20 Nephew of Woody Hayes. I am going to try for the salvage. I can fix = anything.=20 That light had been green for them for a long time and they were up to = speed.=20 Why we were not "T" boned with 6 chances, escapes=20 me. 
 
 
I=20 used to build totals, and this will just be another one. So My wife = can get a=20 newer van and I can drive this one in a few months. Still dizzy = myself. No=20 sleep yet. When I close my eyes it plays over again.
 
 Lynn E.=20 Hanover
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01CC082B.47FF9590--