X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4883178 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:19:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=tLsyj04/L/SH/N6p42ldY6jXDYWe4pX5hAm6uRA1LKo= c=1 sm=0 a=cJEUHa7vEwcA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=vggBfdFIAAAA:8 a=RaQ35IXNhsiowJSs5CsA:9 a=wjzVnrgDMMcZk1Q7VeYA:7 a=aqttx7keeSQtu6tdtYJJ-GXI1BsA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=5SpnsIHfkqh7UQ5B:21 a=K4kqkrVdlYTSrOPX:21 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=chOsw9ywZaiMGHp5iQoA:9 a=US58X80-OlfDPIPa1YYA:7 a=a2qUFqujjp2GsYMvRLT-AoJyiAsA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=djSSOgbfo6cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:55524] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 41/EB-05134-E1F786D4; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 04:18:39 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:18:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01CBD542.4AAE8420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CBD542.4AAE8420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So far I have around 560 hours on my two tanks with a single selector = switch and a facet pump between tanks and my hi pressure section. I got = around any return to tank problem by returning all fuel to a very small = header tank holding around 1/2-3/4 pint of fuel located on the bottom of = my firewall. In effect it's almost a 'returnless' system similar to = that found on many modern automobile fuel set ups. I do have the header tank and Hi pressure pumps located in a fiberglass = box covered with stick back aluminum tape (for radiant heat reflection) = and an blast tube funneling cooling air into the box. Its worked fine = for over 10 years. All Hi pressure fuel elements are forward of the stainless steel = firewall in the engine compartment - none in the cockpit area (my = preference). =20 With my EFISM set to remind me of fuel transfer at what ever gallon = amount I want (I usually have it set at four gallons which seems to = provide a good set point for balance in my Rv-6A). The alarm flashes = and will not stop until I take overt action to switch tank and punch off = the alarm. Not perfect, but simply, few parts and no way to pump fuel = out of a tank overboard. While that is my preference, so long as it a system is fundamentally = safe and provides adequate indication of fuel status and fuel system = condition, any number of designs can/will work - its all in what makes = you feel comfortable. FWIW Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Charlie England=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 6:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? Thanks, Bill. Your points are why I haven't given that setup serious = consideration. And while $500 (for the Andair) is cheaper than a crash, = it isn't cheap enough to sound reasonable as a solution. :-)=20 With an inexpensive pump having anti-siphon features, it's making me = consider yet another option: a transfer pump for each tank, with no = selector valve at all. Of course, that means more (or at least = different) complexity, and more weight. The L/R imbalance issue is about the same for an RV. =20 Without decisions, I'd have hundreds of hours flying by now.... Charlie On 2/25/2011 5:40 AM, Bill Schertz wrote:=20 Charlie, I would caution about your using a selector 'normally' and returning = to only one tank. I believe that it puts too much workload on the pilot, = especially when you don't have max fuel. I don't know about RV's, but = my experimental (KIS) shows a definite development of the tendency to = turn towards the heavy tank when they get very far out of balance due to = uneven fuel content. At about 5 gallons difference in the tanks, I start = to have to apply steady pressure to the ailerons to correct it. So, if = you are getting low down to half tanks, and start drawing from the = non-return tank, it might not take very long to deplete that tank with = the excess fuel being dumped into the return tank. Our pumps move the = fuel rather fast, faster (I believe) than the certified planes that use = that system. A prototype Pulsar with the system as you described had = this problem during an early test flight when he started with ~10 = gallons in each tank, switched to the non-return tank, and ran out of = gas much faster than expected, couldn't get the pump to prime in time = from the other tank, and had an off field landing. Andair makes a nice duplex valve that returns the fuel to the tank it = came from. Costs a lot less than an off field landing. FWIW =20 Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase one testing Completed From: Charlie England=20 Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 5:18 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? Ouch; I hadn't thought about that. But I suspect that even a low = pressure pump would damage the tank if the vent is blocked. Thanks for = the data point on the fact that a high pressure pump can be used = effectively as a transfer pump. Were you using a separate port on the main tank for your transfer = point? My tentative plan is to T into either the regulator return, or = (assuming an effective back/anti-siphon setup), into the main supply = between tank & engine pump. Obviously, the anti-siphon feature would = need to be bullet proof to tap the supply line. One option I've considered is to use the fuel selector 'normally', but = have all regulator bypass return to a single 'main' tank. This = arrangement is actually used in some certified planes with injected = Continentals, but I'm leery of having my primary engine pump run dry for = even a very short interval as I empty an aux tank. I suppose that with = that arrangement, it would only run dry for a couple of seconds ( :-> ), = so maybe it would work out fine. Any thoughts? Charlie On 2/24/2011 2:36 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote:=20 Charlie, =20 I initially had my RV set up with a Facet transfer pump with an = external check valve. The check valve spring was replaced with a = slightly stronger one so that it served both the anti back flow and anti = siphon functions. The high percentage of the time that the Facet = transfer pump was operating convinced me to change to the type (not the = exact part) of pump you are considering. The pump seemed reliable but = after a couple of instances of transferring fuel out the receiving = tank's vent in spite of a timer on the transfer pump, I eliminated the = transfer function altogether. The possibility of applying up to 90 psi = to the receiving tank if its vent malfunctioned did not suit me. It = would not take anywhere near this pressure to fail the tank. The = procedure for leak testing the fuel tanks cautions not to apply even a = couple of psi to them. The limitation here really was me, though, not = the equipment. =20 Steve Boese RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? =20 Anyone see any issues with one of the automotive in-tank pumps being = used outside the tank? Looking at the overall = pump/pickup/regulator/level sensor/etc assemblies in most auto fuel = tanks, it would appear that the pump itself would be above the level of = the fuel anyway if the tank is less than 1/4 full. I've been looking for a Facet transfer pump that has both a backflow = valve & an anti-siphon valve (40257 is one) but they are very hard to = find & expensive when you find them. During my search, I ran across = this: = http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BMBSS0/ref=3Dpd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd= _p=3D486539851&pf_rd_s=3Dlpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=3D201&pf_rd_i=3DB002YP4= Q3Q&pf_rd_m=3DATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=3D1JFK34G48EBF5R93EB2Y The application appears to be 87-98 GM products. It appears to be very similar to the 'standard' in-line pump that = Tracy supplies, with the exception of plastic components in the output = end. Assuming that it's a positive displacement gear pump, it should = supply both the backflow & anti-siphon features I desire & at roughly = $30 shipped, it's cheaper than even the cheapest Facet 'solid state' = transfer pumps. I'm hoping that cooling/lube won't be an issue as long = as it isn't run 'dry' for more than a few seconds at the end of a = transfer cycle. Charlie ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CBD542.4AAE8420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So far I have around 560 hours on my two tanks = with a=20 single selector switch and a facet pump between tanks and my hi pressure = section.  I got around any return to tank problem by returning all = fuel to=20 a very small header tank holding around 1/2-3/4 pint of fuel located on = the=20 bottom of my firewall.  In effect it's almost a 'returnless' system = similar=20 to that found on many modern automobile fuel set ups.
 
I do have the header tank and Hi pressure pumps = located in=20 a fiberglass box covered with stick back aluminum tape (for radiant heat = reflection) and an blast tube funneling cooling air into the box.  = Its=20 worked fine for over 10 years.
 
All Hi pressure fuel elements are forward of the = stainless=20 steel firewall in the engine compartment - none in the cockpit area (my=20 preference).  
 
With my EFISM set to remind me of fuel transfer = at what=20 ever gallon amount I want (I usually have it set at four gallons which = seems to=20 provide a good set point for balance in my Rv-6A).  The alarm = flashes and=20 will not stop until I take overt action to switch tank and punch off the = alarm.  Not perfect, but simply, few parts and no way to pump fuel = out of a=20 tank overboard.
 
While that is my preference, so long as it a = system is=20 fundamentally safe and provides adequate indication of fuel status and = fuel=20 system condition, any number of designs can/will  work - its all in = what=20 makes you feel comfortable.
 
 
FWIW
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Charlie England
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 6:00 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump=20 cooling??

Thanks, Bill. Your points are why I haven't given that = setup=20 serious consideration. And while $500 (for the Andair) is cheaper than a = crash,=20 it isn't cheap enough to sound reasonable as a solution. :-) =

With an=20 inexpensive pump having anti-siphon features, it's making me consider = yet=20 another option: a  transfer pump for each tank, with no selector = valve at=20 all. Of course, that means more (or at least different) complexity, and = more=20 weight.

The L/R imbalance issue is about the same for an = RV. =20

Without decisions, I'd have hundreds of hours flying by=20 now....

Charlie

On 2/25/2011 5:40 AM, Bill Schertz wrote:=20
Charlie,
I would caution about your using a selector =91normally=92 and = returning to=20 only one tank. I believe that it puts too much workload on the pilot,=20 especially when you don=92t have max fuel. I don=92t know about = RV=92s, but  my=20 experimental (KIS) shows a definite development of the tendency to = turn=20 towards the heavy tank when they get very far out of balance due to = uneven=20 fuel content. At about 5 gallons difference in the tanks, I start to = have to=20 apply steady pressure to the ailerons to correct it. So, if you are = getting=20 low down to half tanks, and start drawing from the non-return tank, it = might=20 not take very long to deplete that tank with the excess fuel being = dumped into=20 the return tank. Our pumps move the fuel rather fast, faster (I = believe) than=20 the certified planes that use that system.  A prototype Pulsar = with the=20 system as you described had this problem during an early test flight = when he=20 started with ~10 gallons in each tank, switched to the non-return = tank, and=20 ran out of gas much faster than expected, couldn=92t get the pump to = prime in=20 time from the other tank, and had an off field landing.
 
Andair makes a nice duplex valve that returns the fuel to the = tank it=20 came from. Costs a lot less than an off field landing.
 
FWIW 
 
Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase one testing = Completed
 
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 5:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump=20 cooling??
 
Ouch;=20 I hadn't thought about that. But I suspect that even a low pressure = pump would=20 damage the tank if the vent is blocked. Thanks for the data point on = the fact=20 that a high pressure pump can be used effectively as a transfer=20 pump.

Were you using a separate port on the main tank for your = transfer=20 point? My tentative plan is to T into either the regulator return, or=20 (assuming an effective back/anti-siphon setup), into the main supply = between=20 tank & engine pump. Obviously, the anti-siphon feature would need = to be=20 bullet proof to tap the supply line.

One option I've considered = is to=20 use the fuel selector 'normally', but have all regulator bypass return = to a=20 single 'main' tank. This arrangement is actually used in some = certified planes=20 with injected Continentals, but I'm leery of having my primary engine = pump run=20 dry for even a very short interval as I empty an aux tank. I suppose = that with=20 that arrangement, it would only run dry for a couple of seconds ( = :-> ), so=20 maybe it would work out fine. Any=20 thoughts?



Charlie


On 2/24/2011 2:36 PM, = Steven W.=20 Boese wrote:=20

Charlie,

 

I = initially had my=20 RV set up with a Facet transfer pump with an external check = valve.  The=20 check valve spring was replaced with a slightly stronger one so that = it=20 served both the anti back flow and anti siphon functions.  The = high=20 percentage of the time that the Facet transfer pump was operating = convinced=20 me to change to the type (not the exact part) of pump you are =20 considering.  The pump seemed reliable but after a couple of = instances=20 of transferring fuel out the receiving tank=92s vent in spite of a = timer on=20 the transfer pump, I eliminated the transfer function = altogether.  The=20 possibility of applying up to 90 psi to the receiving tank if its = vent=20 malfunctioned did not suit me.  It would not take anywhere near = this=20 pressure to fail the tank.  The procedure for leak testing the = fuel=20 tanks cautions not to apply even a couple of psi to them.  The=20 limitation here really was me, though, not the=20 equipment.

 

Steve=20 Boese

RV6A 1986 = 13B NA=20 RD1A EC2

 

 

 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf=20 Of Charlie England
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 = 12:23=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling??

 


Anyone see any=20 issues with one of the automotive in-tank pumps being used outside = the tank?=20 Looking at the overall pump/pickup/regulator/level sensor/etc = assemblies in=20 most auto fuel tanks, it would appear that the pump itself would be = above=20 the level of the fuel anyway if the tank is less than 1/4 = full.

I've=20 been looking for a Facet transfer pump that has both a backflow = valve &=20 an anti-siphon valve (40257 is one) but they are very hard to find = &=20 expensive when you find them. During my search, I ran across=20 this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BMBSS0/ref=3D= pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=3D486539851&pf_rd_s=3Dlpo-top-stripe-1&= pf_rd_t=3D201&pf_rd_i=3DB002YP4Q3Q&pf_rd_m=3DATVPDKIKX0DER&pf= _rd_r=3D1JFK34G48EBF5R93EB2Y

The=20 application appears to be 87-98 GM products.

It appears to be = very=20 similar to the 'standard' in-line pump that Tracy supplies, with the = exception of plastic components in the output end. Assuming that = it's a=20 positive displacement gear pump, it should supply both the backflow = &=20 anti-siphon features I desire & at roughly $30 shipped, it's = cheaper=20 than even the cheapest Facet 'solid state' transfer pumps. I'm = hoping that=20 cooling/lube won't be an issue as long as it isn't run 'dry' for = more than a=20 few seconds at the end of a transfer=20 = cycle.

Charlie



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