X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp108.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.106] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4882877 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:27:16 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.142.198.106; envelope-from=ceengland@bellsouth.net Received: (qmail 29332 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2011 21:26:39 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bellsouth.net; s=s1024; t=1298669199; bh=GlwiRlq/eqJvB3LPt4HMuM5szvZkTCP12rE3EF2/CXU=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=a4SM68RweT8TNUX7rug1PW/W9FiaI3/SIwOjZDiWaMXxlb5DV08ZjeGSIb+F+Dujyd3LOohgtduSANTP5sZ7lKmfeEYetiXbpL33cwXn4TbeS2EqXX2jzI7Aw1aLUKEihQmhkzw81r3qBmopkOz3QO0gUqZGTLPTypAvwSgm51c= Received: from [192.168.10.5] (ceengland@74.240.6.77 with plain) by smtp108.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2011 13:26:38 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: uXJ_6LOswBCr8InijhYErvjWlJuRkoKPGNeiuu7PA.5wcGoy X-YMail-OSG: ooj43psVM1nUn5bYAGNHchOaxbOMWdgafyc7ceeuHGDmqEc gQtLZ_k0syw5I9WAUxLGNEVY00km9gOzGCd81ENRHsh9tlJQ9lmzC_4Ucnm6 Lciw_ENXjHjqG_mh6wwOSZwL9Uvj5vXZp.wD4mlVnA0AylF8gqlRDfepTCCc 160VVbeSyfOghH1Eqj5e0nJ8RmyoouspSPkUkeXifhHVbaGeKFwuPXWcwHFG QSmddWnMFDmYuIQ6NmLzuBNwjg1Lr2zQkQki1rWhwwxHR2Z2GHhlm1Ip0h00 e8rPrnLqF6WA4rTnjvxAMmqlKGbEkQek92nRR7fCtASyxBIlinVuA_TYR5Sh 1 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <4D681E8E.9050607@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:26:38 -0600 From: Charlie England User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030400080901020001050706" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030400080901020001050706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi William, The low pressure pumps are what most people use for transfer pumps. The potential problem, as others have noticed, is that if you T the transfer line into the regulator's bypass return line, transfer speed suffers (it's forced to compete for space with the returning fuel). The positive displacement pumps offer potential advantages, especially if the cost is less than a typical low pressure pump. Having inherent 'check valve' and anti-siphon features are advantageous in a transfer pump, and rapid transfer could be an asset if the pilot is negligent about monitoring main tank level... Thanks for the thoughts; all input is appreciated. Charlie On 2/25/2011 8:17 AM, William Wilson wrote: > If you're concerned about damaging the tank, an automotive-type pump > designed for carburetor use might be better than one intended for > EFI. They usually develop only about 5 PSI and can be combined with > external pressure regulators to cut the pressure down to basically > whatever you want, of course, they will flow less at lower pressure as > well. These are not positive-displacement pumps since most > carburetors don't have return lines. In the intended application, > when the carburetor float shuts off the fuel flow, the pump keeps > running, but the fuel isn't moving. There were a number of cars in > the 70s and early 80s with this arrangement, including the types from > which rotary engines are often sourced :) > > Please disregard, if you already knew this and I misunderstood the > concern. > > http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-804-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B00029JC6M > http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-801-1-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B00029JC5S/ref=pd_sim_auto_5 > (This does not constitute a recommendation, just an example of the > sort of thing I'm talking about) > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Charlie England > > wrote: > > Ouch; I hadn't thought about that. But I suspect that even a low > pressure pump would damage the tank if the vent is blocked. Thanks > for the data point on the fact that a high pressure pump can be > used effectively as a transfer pump. > > Were you using a separate port on the main tank for your transfer > point? My tentative plan is to T into either the regulator return, > or (assuming an effective back/anti-siphon setup), into the main > supply between tank & engine pump. Obviously, the anti-siphon > feature would need to be bullet proof to tap the supply line. > > One option I've considered is to use the fuel selector 'normally', > but have all regulator bypass return to a single 'main' tank. This > arrangement is actually used in some certified planes with > injected Continentals, but I'm leery of having my primary engine > pump run dry for even a very short interval as I empty an aux > tank. I suppose that with that arrangement, it would only run dry > for a couple of seconds ( :-> ), so maybe it would work out fine. > Any thoughts? > > > > Charlie > > > > On 2/24/2011 2:36 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote: >> >> Charlie, >> >> I initially had my RV set up with a Facet transfer pump with an >> external check valve. The check valve spring was replaced with a >> slightly stronger one so that it served both the anti back flow >> and anti siphon functions. The high percentage of the time that >> the Facet transfer pump was operating convinced me to change to >> the type (not the exact part) of pump you are considering. The >> pump seemed reliable but after a couple of instances of >> transferring fuel out the receiving tank's vent in spite of a >> timer on the transfer pump, I eliminated the transfer function >> altogether. The possibility of applying up to 90 psi to the >> receiving tank if its vent malfunctioned did not suit me. It >> would not take anywhere near this pressure to fail the tank. The >> procedure for leak testing the fuel tanks cautions not to apply >> even a couple of psi to them. The limitation here really was me, >> though, not the equipment. >> >> Steve Boese >> >> RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 >> >> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Charlie England >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:23 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling?? >> >> >> Anyone see any issues with one of the automotive in-tank pumps >> being used outside the tank? Looking at the overall >> pump/pickup/regulator/level sensor/etc assemblies in most auto >> fuel tanks, it would appear that the pump itself would be above >> the level of the fuel anyway if the tank is less than 1/4 full. >> >> I've been looking for a Facet transfer pump that has both a >> backflow valve & an anti-siphon valve (40257 is one) but they are >> very hard to find & expensive when you find them. During my >> search, I ran across this: >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BMBSS0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B002YP4Q3Q&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1JFK34G48EBF5R93EB2Y >> >> >> The application appears to be 87-98 GM products. >> >> It appears to be very similar to the 'standard' in-line pump that >> Tracy supplies, with the exception of plastic components in the >> output end. Assuming that it's a positive displacement gear pump, >> it should supply both the backflow & anti-siphon features I >> desire & at roughly $30 shipped, it's cheaper than even the >> cheapest Facet 'solid state' transfer pumps. I'm hoping that >> cooling/lube won't be an issue as long as it isn't run 'dry' for >> more than a few seconds at the end of a transfer cycle. >> >> Charlie >> > > --------------030400080901020001050706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi William,

The low pressure pumps are what most people use for transfer pumps. The potential problem, as others have noticed, is that if you T the transfer line into the regulator's bypass return line, transfer speed suffers (it's forced to compete for space with the returning fuel).

The positive displacement pumps offer potential advantages, especially if the cost is less than a typical low pressure pump. Having inherent 'check valve' and anti-siphon features are advantageous in a transfer pump, and rapid transfer could be an asset if the pilot is negligent about monitoring main tank level...

Thanks for the thoughts; all input is appreciated.

Charlie

On 2/25/2011 8:17 AM, William Wilson wrote:
If you're concerned about damaging the tank, an automotive-type pump designed for carburetor use might be better than one intended for EFI.  They usually develop only about 5 PSI and can be combined with external pressure regulators to cut the pressure down to basically whatever you want, of course, they will flow less at lower pressure as well.  These are not positive-displacement pumps since most carburetors don't have return lines.  In the intended application, when the carburetor float shuts off the fuel flow, the pump keeps running, but the fuel isn't moving.  There were a number of cars in the 70s and early 80s with this arrangement, including the types from which rotary engines are often sourced :)

Please disregard, if you already knew this and I misunderstood the concern.

http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-804-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B00029JC6M
http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-801-1-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B00029JC5S/ref=pd_sim_auto_5
(This does not constitute a recommendation, just an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about)

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Ouch; I hadn't thought about that. But I suspect that even a low pressure pump would damage the tank if the vent is blocked. Thanks for the data point on the fact that a high pressure pump can be used effectively as a transfer pump.

Were you using a separate port on the main tank for your transfer point? My tentative plan is to T into either the regulator return, or (assuming an effective back/anti-siphon setup), into the main supply between tank & engine pump. Obviously, the anti-siphon feature would need to be bullet proof to tap the supply line.

One option I've considered is to use the fuel selector 'normally', but have all regulator bypass return to a single 'main' tank. This arrangement is actually used in some certified planes with injected Continentals, but I'm leery of having my primary engine pump run dry for even a very short interval as I empty an aux tank. I suppose that with that arrangement, it would only run dry for a couple of seconds ( :-> ), so maybe it would work out fine. Any thoughts?



Charlie



On 2/24/2011 2:36 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote:

Charlie,

 

I initially had my RV set up with a Facet transfer pump with an external check valve.  The check valve spring was replaced with a slightly stronger one so that it served both the anti back flow and anti siphon functions.  The high percentage of the time that the Facet transfer pump was operating convinced me to change to the type (not the exact part) of pump you are  considering.  The pump seemed reliable but after a couple of instances of transferring fuel out the receiving tank’s vent in spite of a timer on the transfer pump, I eliminated the transfer function altogether.  The possibility of applying up to 90 psi to the receiving tank if its vent malfunctioned did not suit me.  It would not take anywhere near this pressure to fail the tank.  The procedure for leak testing the fuel tanks cautions not to apply even a couple of psi to them.  The limitation here really was me, though, not the equipment.

 

Steve Boese

RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fwd: Fuel injector pump cooling??

 


Anyone see any issues with one of the automotive in-tank pumps being used outside the tank? Looking at the overall pump/pickup/regulator/level sensor/etc assemblies in most auto fuel tanks, it would appear that the pump itself would be above the level of the fuel anyway if the tank is less than 1/4 full.

I've been looking for a Facet transfer pump that has both a backflow valve & an anti-siphon valve (40257 is one) but they are very hard to find & expensive when you find them. During my search, I ran across this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BMBSS0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B002YP4Q3Q&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1JFK34G48EBF5R93EB2Y

The application appears to be 87-98 GM products.

It appears to be very similar to the 'standard' in-line pump that Tracy supplies, with the exception of plastic components in the output end. Assuming that it's a positive displacement gear pump, it should supply both the backflow & anti-siphon features I desire & at roughly $30 shipped, it's cheaper than even the cheapest Facet 'solid state' transfer pumps. I'm hoping that cooling/lube won't be an issue as long as it isn't run 'dry' for more than a few seconds at the end of a transfer cycle.

Charlie




--------------030400080901020001050706--