X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2k) with ESMTPS id 4864408 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 06:01:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so5052973fxm.25 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 03:00:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=q6/pn/MWRun7piO+Jw3isvPPZSTsm4J7dFwGxhKT4E8=; b=PLvvU77kLzsl9oB+shddEapnqdmGXOnducqLpZo8q0Hln5rx1vsCc+kb31TPft3A2v /8aQWUCtvumbicZQhoeG/BsErBgaqqQnLZ4G+JSwZHj7KSYkV1EX6iurs3gO5+OIlDwS F9oYR6R6+orTjnwrQxIyzU54+/+iBB8UOhAJc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=YDlLmlU2k8EtAZBEU8sil1Uw8KdTppvLkymMi0FgP6fkloo/OW3KKViRRXbtlRwTGA gvBIhcUc8BWC3ffxNGMxSjfn7TCr5/fbZKYK1WVE9K6Dn9wTeH1Hz315GRCTe+p8yjMc Jsf1X6LxPqVNRab3g73iFCcNiivsF+5B2W/k0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.86.140 with SMTP id s12mr10051663fal.145.1297681239146; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 03:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.69.138 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 03:00:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 05:00:39 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30433f264a81b3049c3bf5b0 --20cf30433f264a81b3049c3bf5b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Chris, Sorry to hear that you're still having hard starting problems. Just for clarification, are you reading 60 psi on all three rotor faces? Did you remember to remove the schraeder valve from the compression gauge? Otherwise, you're reading a compilation of all three, not each individual pulses. You should get three separate readings. If one is high, followed by two low readings, then it is likely a bad apex seal as a single apex seal will cause low readings for two rotor faces. Mark On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > oh, and the initial/build lube has been with Marvel Mystery, Vaseline, > assembly lube with some cleaning fluid mixed in too. I am using Royal > Purple Synthetic for my oiling, even though I broke the engine in initially > with dino oil. > > > > Chris > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf > of bktrub@aol.com [bktrub@aol.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:27 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still > > This is a puzzler. How are you lubing the apex springs? Not that that > has anything to do with it, just wondering. Also wonder how funtional the > apex springs are when the motor is spinning- shouldn't centrifugal force > drive the seals out against the rotor housing walls? > > I hate to be a pessimist, but did you check the side seals and corner seals > also? > > Brian Trubee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Barber > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Low Compression in rotor 2...still > > To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered bad apex seal > springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation. I cracked the keg and > replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back up. While apart, I > did not discover any damage other than the bad springs. > > I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's, > I am still having problems with very hard starting. When I do get it to > start it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over to B. > Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate > setting (even if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B > about the same. I have reset A to factory settings. I do have a bit larger > injectors, per Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and > adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid point per the EC2 manual. > > It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 > seconds...betting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then kindajust starts running as a continuation of the starter being turned, instead > of the engine actually "firing up". > > I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex seals are > nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only getting > about 60 psi on the rear rotor. I am getting about 80 psi on the front > rotor, which is what I expected. > > Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor. I am confidant that I got > it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so confidant as the > facts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 psi which IF I understand > correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the > engine does not seem as smooth when running as it has in the past). > > I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks but > kept it at lower power. Today, however I did run it up for several seconds > and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP. > > I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set", but I am > not really thinking this holds water...or compression for that matter. I > also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did come up a bit, but > the REALLY hard start remains. > > I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I > must have missed. But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WHAT, > pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if I open > her up again???? Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a > teardown. FYI, the plugs looked like I would have expected....brownish ashy > with no oil build up. Also, I am not having any current indication of > coolant in the chambers (don't ask me how I know how to look for that tell > tale sign [-( > > Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or > attempts. > > I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me..... > > Chris Barber > Houston > --20cf30433f264a81b3049c3bf5b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris,=A0

Sorry to hear that you're still having har= d starting problems. =A0Just for clarification, are you reading 60 psi on a= ll three rotor faces? =A0Did you remember to remove the schraeder valve fro= m the compression gauge? =A0Otherwise, you're reading a compilation of = all three, not each individual pulses. =A0You should get three separate rea= dings. =A0If one is high, followed by two low readings, then it is likely a= bad apex seal as a single apex seal will cause low readings for two rotor = faces. =A0

Mark

On Sun, Feb 13, = 2011 at 11:51 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

oh, and the initial/build lube has been with Marvel Mystery, Vase= line, assembly lube with some cleaning fluid mixed in too.=A0 I am u= sing Royal Purple Synthetic for my oiling, even though I broke the engine i= n initially with=A0dino oil.

=A0

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on beha= lf of bktrub@aol.com [bktrub@aol.com]<= br> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still

This is a puzzler. How are you lubing the apex springs? Not that that = has anything to do with it, just wondering. Also wonder how funtional the a= pex springs are when the motor is spinning- shouldn't centrifugal force= drive the seals out against the rotor housing walls?
=A0
I hate to be a pessimist, but did you check the side seals and corner = seals also?
=A0
Brian Trubee



-----= Original Message-----
From: Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Low Compression in rotor 2...still

=A0
I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2= 's, I am still having problems with very hard star= ting.=A0=A0 When I do get it to start it is at full lean and I believe only= if I switch over to B.=A0 Once=A0started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even if = the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same.=A0 I= have reset A to factory settings.=A0 I do have a bit larger injectors, per= Mistrals recommendation, but did=A0crank her up to 22.=A0MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid po= int per the=A0EC2 manual.
=A0
It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or=A060 seco= nds...betting my starter is hating me)=A0before it starts and then=A0kinda<= a> just starts running as a continuation of the starter b= eing turned, instead of the engine actually "firing up".
=A0
I pulled the plugs to check inside=A0and unlike before all the apex=A0= seals are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am onl= y getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor.=A0 I am getting about 80 psi on t= he front rotor, which is what I expected.
=A0
Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor.=A0 I am confidant that = I got it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so c= onfidant as the facts is the facts.=A0The rear rotor is only 60 psi = which IF I understand correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the engine does not se= em as smooth when running as it has in the past).
=A0
I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks= but kept it at lower power.=A0 Today, however I did run it up for several = seconds and was able to produce a steady=A06300 RPM at 33.4 MAP.
=A0
I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set&= quot;, but I am not really thinking this holds water...or compression for t= hat matter.=A0 I also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did co= me up a bit, but the REALLY hard start remains.
=A0
I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what= I must have missed.=A0 But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WH= AT, pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if= I open her up again????=A0 Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown.=A0 FYI, the plugs looke= d like I would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil build up. Also, I= =A0am not having any current indication of coolant in the chambers (don'= ;t ask me how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-(
=A0
Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or a= ttempts.
=A0
I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me.....
=A0
Chris Barber
Houston

--20cf30433f264a81b3049c3bf5b0--