X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm15-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with SMTP id 4839472 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:13:26 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.208; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.63] by nm15.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 22:12:52 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.9] by tm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 22:12:51 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1009.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 22:12:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 972316.67149.bm@omp1009.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 1816 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Feb 2011 22:12:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1296943971; bh=pIYtQJpFwMjU4wy30Mu6ikOIqj3msQJyMkL0Xp1O7OM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hNzhYwRtO9gXQ+Ij3vhIdbwclCTbZCwN2y7qYvijBK3HqYDjCRqMcxG8ARVvE/D+PQMKFAUmMkcs5U8fHnaFuxIluM3EX8I33GHaZf6Wrj1NlMMvPew9G0jef0h6CApxHgluIlhPIm0Ls9bCsJ4jJPOgQnfsRlbtxIir8ojiJJw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LINYAMGp2zKSObIwUqYlIFVEc418CsuaOrC6jWzYGwVovn/OwfStF+887n0ixuseoK4MDPdvSvj3lWt7LEu5Q3PuAllGDqGaUkx31y60uncBakd0t0sZdyD3QijSqaG6UCDkX0EIzh36w2YuM5s4d8h0WAz4IcYfVv3KsITkass=; Message-ID: <674935.1698.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 2V8K6YwVM1n.eXRv0D1ZRmBLQI4BspuyFdyC9yxKi5GUZN1 iYfU3bHDB0DT1eT1Qb7qhZT1XDgLXFTiwJmwsiy8yMPtAPxJK2GnlwH19aQI NKiiPfQMqC9QljBlLhwV5gAmxIsdplWI7VJzLsCZ56HJi0T_sjDXZ4nsh5Xt V4QCbxVen80JOF0KnQYYqgb9ey0GUeV1pNztav7r.CWdG.L5IcZ7ru0jjpyZ 2KGHhOruxXJSr70SFXUK7D8rdYdfc59oXvsgB8eH769bC7r_CVmQuM5_MmtY sNSr5VN.J Received: from [208.114.45.24] by web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:12:51 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:12:51 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Mistral parts? To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1104360668-1296943971=:1698" --0-1104360668-1296943971=:1698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill is right Steve..............Especially if you are burning 100 low lead= =0Afuel................Some of the guys are having=0Agood service from the= RX8 Renesis "Iridium" sparkplugs...............Jump in =0Ahere you guys th= at are flying............=0ATell us your spark plug stories about what plug= s are working for you and what =0Afuel you are using...........I know=0Athe= plug discussion comes up often but we all need our memories refreshed =0A(= especially me)................<:)=0A=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (= Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backpla= te/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________= ________________=0AFrom: Bill Schertz =0ATo: Rotary m= otors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, February 5, 20= 11 2:49:51 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts?=0A=0A=0ASteve, anot= her cause of one rotor being hotter egt is the beginning of sparkplug =0Afa= ilure. (SAG) Try a new set of plugs especially if you did the ground runnin= g =0Aand 20 hours flight with one set.=0A=0ABill Schertz=0AKIS Cruiser #404= 5=0AN343BS=0A=0A=0AFrom: Steve Thomas =0ASent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 = 1:08 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral= parts?=0AHowdy everyone!=A0 I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but= admit that I =0Adon't read all the posts.=A0 Here is an update on the situ= ation at Mistral.=A0 The =0Acompany has closed its doors for now and is in = the hands of a bankruptcy court.=A0 =0AHowever, there is still a lot of int= erest in the company and they are continuing =0Ato seek out either addition= al investors or a sale of the company with a view to =0Aresume.=A0 The cour= t has given them an extension to work out any possible plans.=A0=A0 =0A=0A= =0AAll of the employees that were there before it closed are gone, most hav= ing =0Asought out other opportunities.=A0 So, there is really no one to con= tact at this =0Apoint.=A0 Will there be a revival of Mistral?=A0 All of us = who own their engines =0Asure hope so.=A0 I hope to convince any new owners= /investors to get parts into the =0Afield, both whole engines and individua= l parts.=A0 One aspect of my engine that I =0Areally appreciate is the hydr= aulic prop.=A0 Works great.=A0 =0A=0A=0AIf anything that is for public cons= umption occurs, I will try to let everyone =0Aknow.=A0 =0A=0A=0AOn another = subject, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane.=A0 I have been =0Afightin= g an oil temperature problem from the outset.=A0 I've realized that I have = =0Aan air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too small.=A0 Righ= t now, I =0Acan manage the oil temps to the point that I can safely fly, bu= t will need to =0Amake some major cowl mods somewhere down the road.=A0 I w= ant to get my 40 hours =0Aflown off so I can return to my home airport and = work more efficiently.=A0 The =0Alarge intake scoop is also having a detrim= ental effect on my top speed, both =0Afrom drag and the need to keep thrott= led back to watch the oil.=A0 I can see that =0Amy cowl is building up a lo= t of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved =0Abefore I will really kno= w what this ship can do.=A0 =0A=0A=0AAlso, I have found a muffler that work= s great, but it is still hanging out in =0Athe breeze under the airplane.= =A0 The muffler has cut the noise considerably.=A0 I =0Agot it from Burns S= tainless.=A0 it is one of their 2-stage mufflers.=A0 But, I am =0Aalso figh= ting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, which I attribute to poor cooling of the =0A= header.=A0 So, I need to do some work there as well.=A0 I'd love to get the= whole =0Abusiness under the cowl, so one of those tangential muffler solut= ions with a =0Acool air blast tube is probably in my future.=A0 The tangent= ial probably reduces =0Athe available power a little, but the undercarriage= muffler adds drag.=A0 =0A=0A=0ABut, for now, I'm concentrating real hard o= n getting my hours flown off.=A0 =0A=0ABest Regards,=0A=0ASteve Thomas=0A= =0A"When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people = fear the =0Agovernment there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson=0A____________= ___________________________________________=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 5, 2= 011, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0AMarc,=0A>=A0=A0 I do not know "M= istral's" current status............I have their backplate =0A>and oil mani= fold............You=0A>might contact=A0 Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with= a complete "Mistral" 13B =0A>engine........I do not=0A>know how close he m= onitors this forum...............=0A>=0A>Steve Thomas =0A>= =0A>Steve Thomas =0A>=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA = JD2"=A0(Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTR= AL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A= ________________________________=0AFrom:=A0Marc Wiese =0A>To:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent:= =A0Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM=0A>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] Mistral part= s?=0A>=0A>=0A>Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankruptcy= /withdrawal from =0A>the market stopped all that completely? Did they sell = to someone?=0A>Marc=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>=0A________________________________=0A= =0A>From:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]= =A0On Behalf =0A>Of=A0Lehanover@aol.com=0A>Sent:=A0Friday, February 04, 201= 1 12:54 AM=0A>To:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] Re:= Case bolts and torque readings=0A>=A0=0A>In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:= 48 P.M. Eastern Standard =0A>Time,=A0Lehanover@aol.com=A0writes:=0A>Lynn,= =0A>>>=A0=A0 Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation a= nd all the =0A>>>mention of=A0 torque=0A>>>readings based on "Dry Threads" = then your statement to use "Antiseize" which =0A>>>method=0A>>>produces the= most accurate and repeatable torque readings ??............In my =0A>>>hun= t for bolts=0A>>>of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to = bolt to my "Mistral" =0A>>>backplate to=0A>>>my engine mount I obtained a l= ot of info regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" =0A>>>(well known=0A>>>fast= ener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation includes the use= =0A>>>of their=0A>>>own brand of thread lubricant...............=0A>>>=A0= =0A>>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2"=A0(Eventually)=0A>=A0=0A>Well, any= method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to =0A>hol= e can then produce repeatable torque readings within some acceptable range.= =0A>All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders = like STP =0A>because it clings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range i= n tension =0A>developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clea= n dry threads in a =0A>clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lu= bricated with nearly any =0A>kind of oil or, oil like product.=0A>=A0=0A>Th= en all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of = =0A>tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. = So if the =0A>bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back each = out in sequence one =0A>full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the th= reads and torque up in one =0A>continuous motion. If you have to stop the m= otion before the wrench clicks, then =0A>back up one full turn and try agai= n.=0A>=A0=0A>If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the= wrench click, =0A>then the bolt has=A0 not been torqued and shame on you.= =0A>=A0=0A>Torque is called out to control some other factor. In this case = how much =0A>pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and= some torsional =0A>stiffness.=0A>=A0=0A>In very highly stressed bolts in t= ension, the bolt is torqued into a tensile =0A>stress above the maximum loa= d expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) makes all =0A>kinds of bolts. The = great tension bolts have a dimple on both ends. You stick a =0A>special dia= l indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the bolt until it has =0A>str= etched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. It is best to have a = =0A>spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resizing you rods. The = clown who =0A>runs that machine generally torques rod bolts to 35 pounds fo= r everything.=0A>=A0=0A>You want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 po= unds and stretched to .007" =0A>That is if you actually want round big ends= . (Higher HP and lower oil temps).=0A>=A0=0A>The torque callouts for most b= olts have nothing to do with the bolts at all. It =0A>is to prevent your ha= m fisted brother in-law from jacking the threads out of an =0A>aluminum cas= ting. So bolts in aluminum for most applications can be made of =0A>crap. S= ince not into their working range, there is no way to keep them from =0A>ba= cking out without some positive locking system. Not Locktite as it will glu= e =0A>the bolt in tight and require much heat to kill it before removal, le= st the =0A>threads come out with the bolt.=0AOr, Locktite just under the bo= lt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for =0Asafety wire.=0A=A0=0AThe = aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are shear bolts.= =0AAlways used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and very lightly t= orqued as =0Athey are poor in tension. They have a hole through the threads= for a safety pin =0Aor split cotter to keep the half height castle nut fro= m falling off. =0A=0A=A0=0AWent to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of=A0 Flight museum= today. Went on all of the tours. =0AWell worth a side trip up I-4 while at= Sun&Fun.=0A=A0=0ALynn E. Hanover --0-1104360668-1296943971=:1698 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Bill is right Steve..............Especially if you = are burning 100 low lead fuel................Some of the guys are having=0A
good service from the RX8 Renesis "Iridium" sparkplugs..........= .....Jump in here you guys that are flying............
=0A
Tell us= your spark plug stories about what plugs are working for you and what fuel= you are using...........I know
=0A
the plug discussion comes up o= ften but we all need our memories refreshed (especially me)................= <:)
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
<= STRONG>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MIST= RAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=
=0A

=0A
=0A
= =0AFrom: Bill Schertz <w= schertz@comcast.net>
To:<= /B> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 2:49:= 51 PM
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Mistral parts?

=0A
=0A
=0A
Steve, a= nother cause of one rotor being hotter egt is the beginning of sparkplug fa= ilure. (SAG) Try a new set of plugs especially if you did the ground runnin= g and 20 hours flight with one set.
=0A
 
=0A
Bill Schertz
= KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
=0A
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Fr= om: Steve Thomas =
=0A
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:08 PM
=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft
=0A
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts?
=0A
 
=0A
Howdy everyone!  I'm sitting here lurking most of the tim= e, but admit that I don't read all the posts.  Here is an update on th= e situation at Mistral.  The company has closed its doors for now and = is in the hands of a bankruptcy court.  However, there is still a lot = of interest in the company and they are continuing to seek out either addit= ional investors or a sale of the company with a view to resume.  The c= ourt has given them an extension to work out any possible plans.  = ; =0A
 
=0A
All of the employees that were there before i= t closed are gone, most having sought out other opportunities.  So, th= ere is really no one to contact at this point.  Will there be a reviva= l of Mistral?  All of us who own their engines sure hope so.  I h= ope to convince any new owners/investors to get parts into the field, both = whole engines and individual parts.  One aspect of my engine that I re= ally appreciate is the hydraulic prop.  Works great. 
=0A 
=0A
If anything that is for public consumption occurs, I= will try to let everyone know. 
=0A
 
=0A
On = another subject, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane.  I have been= fighting an oil temperature problem from the outset.  I've realized t= hat I have an air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too small.=   Right now, I can manage the oil temps to the point that I can safely= fly, but will need to make some major cowl mods somewhere down the road.&n= bsp; I want to get my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my home airport= and work more efficiently.  The large intake scoop is also having a d= etrimental effect on my top speed, both from drag and the need to keep thro= ttled back to watch the oil.  I can see that my cowl is building up a = lot of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved before I will really know= what this ship can do. 
=0A
 
=0A
Also, I hav= e found a muffler that works great, but it is still hanging out in the bree= ze under the airplane.  The muffler has cut the noise considerably.&nb= sp; I got it from Burns Stainless.  it is one of their 2-stage muffler= s.  But, I am also fighting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, which I attribut= e to poor cooling of the header.  So, I need to do some work there as = well.  I'd love to get the whole business under the cowl, so one of th= ose tangential muffler solutions with a cool air blast tube is probably in = my future.  The tangential probably reduces the available power a litt= le, but the undercarriage muffler adds drag. 
=0A
 =0A
But, for now, I'm concentrating real hard on getting my hours flo= wn off. 
=0A
=0A

Best Regards,

St= eve Thomas

"When the government fears the people there is liberty; w= hen the people fear the government there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson_______________________________________________________



=0A
 
=0A
=0A
On Feb 5, 20= 11, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:

=0A
=0A
=0A
Marc,
=0A
   I do not know "Mistral's" current status............I h= ave their backplate and oil manifold............You
=0A
might contact  Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a compl= ete "Mistral" 13B engine........I do not
=0A
know how close he monitors this forum...............
=0A
 
=0A
Steve Thomas <g= lasair2@me.com>
=0A
 
=0ASteve Thomas <steve@stevet.net>=0A
 
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventua= lly)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= =0A
 
=0A
=0A
 =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
To:&n= bsp;Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2= 011 12:16:23 PM
Subject:=  [FlyRotary] Mistral parts?=

=0A
=0A
Will Mistral still se= ll subassemblies or has their bankruptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped= all that completely? Did they sell to someone?
=0A
Marc
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February= 04, 2011 12:54 AM
To: <= /SPAN>Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings
=0A

 

=0A
=0AIn a mess= age dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Lehanover@aol.com writes:
=0A
=0A
=0A=
=0A
Lynn,
=0A
&n= bsp;  Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation and= all the mention of  torque
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
produces the most ac= curate and repeatable torque readings ??............In my hunt for bolts
=0A
=0A
of the correct thread length for = the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to
=0A
=0A
my engine mount I obtained a lot of info regard= ing bolt torque from the "ARP" (well known
=0A
=0A
fastener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation= includes the use of their
=0A
= =0A
= own = brand of thread lubricant...............
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
= Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
=0A
=0A=

 

=0A
=0A
Well, any metho= d of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to hole can then= produce repeatable torque readings within some acceptable range. All dry h= oles in one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders like STP becau= se it clings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range in tension develope= d between say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a cle= an dry hole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated with nearly any k= ind of oil or, oil like product.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A<= DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Then all= of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of tension= outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. So if the b= olt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back each out in sequence= one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the threads and torque up= in one continuous motion. If you have to stop the motion before the wrench= clicks, then back up one full turn and try again.
=0A=0A

 

=0A
=0A
If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the wr= ench click, then the bolt has  not been torqued and shame on you.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
Torque is called out to control some other fa= ctor. In this case how much pressure is on the stack, and that controls bea= m stiffness and some torsional stiffness.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a ten= sile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) m= akes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple on both ends= . You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the = bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. It= is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resizing= you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally torques rod bolts to 3= 5 pounds for everything.
=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A
You want you r= ods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to .007" That is if= you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil temps).<= /DIV>
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
The torque callouts for most bolts have nothing = to do with the bolts at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-la= w from jacking the threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum= for most applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working ra= nge, there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive lo= cking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and require mu= ch heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out with the bolt.=
=0A
=0A
Or, Locktite ju= st under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for safety wire.<= /SPAN>
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
The aircraft bolts with thin heads and ve= ry short thread runs, are shear bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid= a bending load, and very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They= have a hole through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep t= he half height castle nut from falling off.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum today. Went on all = of the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun.
=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A
Lynn E. Hanover
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
 
--0-1104360668-1296943971=:1698--