X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.24] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTP id 4839433 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:50:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.24; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from omta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.60]) by qmta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4LfG1g0031HzFnQ52LqDrn; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:50:13 +0000 Received: from WschertzPC ([75.203.23.27]) by omta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 4Lpw1g00X0b4NGj3aLq0ey; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:50:10 +0000 Message-ID: <828EF973E0CE4994861460C6B1364F02@WschertzPC> From: "Bill Schertz" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:49:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CBC543.F18F4450" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3502.922 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3502.922 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CBC543.F18F4450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, another cause of one rotor being hotter egt is the beginning of = sparkplug failure. (SAG) Try a new set of plugs especially if you did = the ground running and 20 hours flight with one set. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS From: Steve Thomas=20 Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts? Howdy everyone! I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but admit = that I don't read all the posts. Here is an update on the situation at = Mistral. The company has closed its doors for now and is in the hands = of a bankruptcy court. However, there is still a lot of interest in the = company and they are continuing to seek out either additional investors = or a sale of the company with a view to resume. The court has given = them an extension to work out any possible plans. =20 All of the employees that were there before it closed are gone, most = having sought out other opportunities. So, there is really no one to = contact at this point. Will there be a revival of Mistral? All of us = who own their engines sure hope so. I hope to convince any new = owners/investors to get parts into the field, both whole engines and = individual parts. One aspect of my engine that I really appreciate is = the hydraulic prop. Works great. =20 If anything that is for public consumption occurs, I will try to let = everyone know. =20 On another subject, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane. I have = been fighting an oil temperature problem from the outset. I've realized = that I have an air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too = small. Right now, I can manage the oil temps to the point that I can = safely fly, but will need to make some major cowl mods somewhere down = the road. I want to get my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my = home airport and work more efficiently. The large intake scoop is also = having a detrimental effect on my top speed, both from drag and the need = to keep throttled back to watch the oil. I can see that my cowl is = building up a lot of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved before I = will really know what this ship can do. =20 Also, I have found a muffler that works great, but it is still hanging = out in the breeze under the airplane. The muffler has cut the noise = considerably. I got it from Burns Stainless. it is one of their = 2-stage mufflers. But, I am also fighting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, = which I attribute to poor cooling of the header. So, I need to do some = work there as well. I'd love to get the whole business under the cowl, = so one of those tangential muffler solutions with a cool air blast tube = is probably in my future. The tangential probably reduces the available = power a little, but the undercarriage muffler adds drag. =20 But, for now, I'm concentrating real hard on getting my hours flown off. = =20 Best Regards, Steve Thomas "When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people = fear the government there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson _______________________________________________________ On Feb 5, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Marc, I do not know "Mistral's" current status............I have their = backplate and oil manifold............You might contact Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a complete = "Mistral" 13B engine........I do not know how close he monitors this forum............... Steve Thomas Steve Thomas Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Marc Wiese To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Mistral parts? Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their = bankruptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped all that completely? Did = they sell to someone? Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:54 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, = Lehanover@aol.com writes: Lynn, Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation = and all the mention of torque readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use = "Antiseize" which method produces the most accurate and repeatable torque readings = ??............In my hunt for bolts of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to = my "Mistral" backplate to my engine mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque = from the "ARP" (well known fastener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation = includes the use of their own brand of thread lubricant............... Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) Well, any method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and = hole to hole can then produce repeatable torque readings within some = acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes = or many builders like STP because it clings to stuff so well. So, there = is a big range in tension developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a = bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and = another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of oil or, oil like = product. Then all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower = band of tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything = works. So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back = each out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto = the threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you have to stop = the motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn and try = again. If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the = wrench click, then the bolt has not been torqued and shame on you. Torque is called out to control some other factor. In this case how = much pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some = torsional stiffness. In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a = tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed = Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple = on both ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and = you torque the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" = for rod bolts. It is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use = just during resizing you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally = torques rod bolts to 35 pounds for everything. You want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and = stretched to .007" That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher = HP and lower oil temps). The torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts = at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the = threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most = applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working range, = there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive = locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and = require much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out = with the bolt. Or, Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt = head for safety wire. The aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are = shear bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and = very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a hole = through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half = height castle nut from falling off.=20 Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of Flight museum today. Went on all of = the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CBC543.F18F4450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve, another cause of one rotor being hotter egt is the beginning = of=20 sparkplug failure. (SAG) Try a new set of plugs especially if you did = the ground=20 running and 20 hours flight with one set.
 
Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
 
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts?
 
Howdy=20 everyone!  I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but admit = that I=20 don't read all the posts.  Here is an update on the situation at=20 Mistral.  The company has closed its doors for now and is in the = hands of a=20 bankruptcy court.  However, there is still a lot of interest in the = company=20 and they are continuing to seek out either additional investors or a = sale of the=20 company with a view to resume.  The court has given them an = extension to=20 work out any possible plans.  =20
 
All of the employees that were there before it closed are gone, = most having=20 sought out other opportunities.  So, there is really no one to = contact at=20 this point.  Will there be a revival of Mistral?  All of us = who own=20 their engines sure hope so.  I hope to convince any new = owners/investors to=20 get parts into the field, both whole engines and individual parts.  = One=20 aspect of my engine that I really appreciate is the hydraulic = prop.  Works=20 great. 
 
If anything that is for public consumption occurs, I will try to = let=20 everyone know. 
 
On another subject, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane.  = I have=20 been fighting an oil temperature problem from the outset.  I've = realized=20 that I have an air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too=20 small.  Right now, I can manage the oil temps to the point that I = can=20 safely fly, but will need to make some major cowl mods somewhere down = the=20 road.  I want to get my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my = home=20 airport and work more efficiently.  The large intake scoop is also = having a=20 detrimental effect on my top speed, both from drag and the need to keep=20 throttled back to watch the oil.  I can see that my cowl is = building up a=20 lot of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved before I will really = know what=20 this ship can do. 
 
Also, I have found a muffler that works great, but it is still = hanging out=20 in the breeze under the airplane.  The muffler has cut the noise=20 considerably.  I got it from Burns Stainless.  it is one of = their=20 2-stage mufflers.  But, I am also fighting high EGTs on my #1 = rotor, which=20 I attribute to poor cooling of the header.  So, I need to do some = work=20 there as well.  I'd love to get the whole business under the cowl, = so one=20 of those tangential muffler solutions with a cool air blast tube is = probably in=20 my future.  The tangential probably reduces the available power a = little,=20 but the undercarriage muffler adds drag. 
 
But, for now, I'm concentrating real hard on getting my hours flown = off. 

Best Regards,

Steve = Thomas

"When the=20 government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the=20 government there is tyranny." --Thomas=20 Jefferson
______________________________________________________= _




 
On Feb 5, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
Marc,
   I do not know "Mistral's" = current=20 status............I have their backplate and oil = manifold............You
might contact  Steve Thomas (Glasair = retract)=20 with a complete "Mistral" 13B engine........I do not
know how close he monitors this=20 forum...............
 
Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
 
Steve Thomas <steve@stevet.net>
 
 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

 
 
From: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
<= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 = 12:16:23=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Mistral=20 parts?

Will Mistral = still sell=20 subassemblies or has their bankruptcy/withdrawal from the market = stopped all=20 that completely? Did they sell to someone?
Marc

 

 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 = 12:54=20 AM
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts = and torque=20 readings

 

In a = message=20 dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Lehanover@aol.com writes:
Lynn,
  =20 Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation and = all the=20 mention of  torque
readings=20 based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use "Antiseize" = which=20 method
produces=20 the most accurate and repeatable torque readings ??............In = my hunt=20 for bolts
of the=20 correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my = "Mistral"=20 backplate to
my engine=20 mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque from the = "ARP" (well=20 known
fastener=20 company)........Their torque procedure recommendation includes the = use of=20 their
own brand=20 of thread lubricant...............

 

Kelly=20 Troyer
"DYKE=20 DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

 

Well, any=20 method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to = hole can=20 then produce repeatable torque readings within some acceptable = range. All=20 dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders = like STP=20 because it clings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range in = tension=20 developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry = threads=20 in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated = with=20 nearly any kind of oil or, oil like product.

 

Then all of=20 the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of = tension=20 outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. So if = the=20 bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back each out in = sequence=20 one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the threads and = torque up=20 in one continuous motion. If you have to stop the motion before the = wrench=20 clicks, then back up one full turn and try again.

 

If = it was not=20 a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench click, then = the bolt=20 has  not been torqued and shame on you.

 

Torque is=20 called out to control some other factor. In this case how much = pressure is=20 on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some torsional=20 stiffness.

 

In = very=20 highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a tensile = stress=20 above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) makes = all=20 kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple on both ends. = You=20 stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the = bolt=20 until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. = It is=20 best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during = resizing you=20 rods. The clown who runs that machine generally torques rod bolts to = 35=20 pounds for everything.

 

You = want you=20 rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to .007" = That is if=20 you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil=20 temps).

 

The = torque=20 callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts at all. It = is to=20 prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the threads out = of an=20 aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most applications can be = made of=20 crap. Since not into their working range, there is no way to keep = them from=20 backing out without some positive locking system. Not Locktite as it = will=20 glue the bolt in tight and require much heat to kill it before = removal, lest=20 the threads come out with the bolt.
Or, = Locktite=20 just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for safety = wire.

 

The = aircraft=20 bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are shear bolts. = Always used=20 in double shear to avoid a bending load, and very lightly torqued as = they are=20 poor in tension. They have a hole through the threads for a safety pin = or=20 split cotter to keep the half height castle nut from falling off.=20

 

Went = to Kermit=20 Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum today. Went on all of the tours. = Well=20 worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun.

 

Lynn = E.=20 Hanover

 

 
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