X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmfepo103.cox.net ([68.230.241.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTP id 4839384 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:09:21 -0500 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.145; envelope-from=glasair2@me.com Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmfepo103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20110205190845.WUIF20516.fed1rmfepo103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:08:45 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.201] ([70.177.24.126]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 4K8l1g00H2jEC4N03K8l1z; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:08:45 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=f1Du1iEqiWfZdNazgClzoK8inNQZrPSOyO3MYxlXONE= c=1 sm=1 a=XMqwAprsMqcA:10 a=f32ykCDtWUuHg+z19x9HKQ==:17 a=HHGDD-5mAAAA:8 a=AxrwL-o5AAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=HvMir0WN6PhAcnVJvFAA:9 a=hBndswjiwXv7FhEVgcsA:7 a=XbypkirCMXrEnDI1FTANDPvCm4QA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=i1zE5R4R5dEA:10 a=_3-Z_XHc-44A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=_Gzkcz9ekh-KRSoj:21 a=XJSEjxIDuP_fZx1P:21 a=4FmOqO_e4hZ3FIpqGcIA:7 a=GuLrPECZ_g8xA5x4yy-0rVelj9IA:4 a=f32ykCDtWUuHg+z19x9HKQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: Steve Thomas Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-27-798145518 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:08:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-Id: <0D6B5142-1DEA-4CBC-9B9F-0D5285178E43@me.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) --Apple-Mail-27-798145518 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Howdy everyone! I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but admit = that I don't read all the posts. Here is an update on the situation at = Mistral. The company has closed its doors for now and is in the hands = of a bankruptcy court. However, there is still a lot of interest in the = company and they are continuing to seek out either additional investors = or a sale of the company with a view to resume. The court has given = them an extension to work out any possible plans. =20 All of the employees that were there before it closed are gone, most = having sought out other opportunities. So, there is really no one to = contact at this point. Will there be a revival of Mistral? All of us = who own their engines sure hope so. I hope to convince any new = owners/investors to get parts into the field, both whole engines and = individual parts. One aspect of my engine that I really appreciate is = the hydraulic prop. Works great. =20 If anything that is for public consumption occurs, I will try to let = everyone know. =20 On another subject, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane. I have = been fighting an oil temperature problem from the outset. I've realized = that I have an air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too = small. Right now, I can manage the oil temps to the point that I can = safely fly, but will need to make some major cowl mods somewhere down = the road. I want to get my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my = home airport and work more efficiently. The large intake scoop is also = having a detrimental effect on my top speed, both from drag and the need = to keep throttled back to watch the oil. I can see that my cowl is = building up a lot of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved before I = will really know what this ship can do. =20 Also, I have found a muffler that works great, but it is still hanging = out in the breeze under the airplane. The muffler has cut the noise = considerably. I got it from Burns Stainless. it is one of their = 2-stage mufflers. But, I am also fighting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, = which I attribute to poor cooling of the header. So, I need to do some = work there as well. I'd love to get the whole business under the cowl, = so one of those tangential muffler solutions with a cool air blast tube = is probably in my future. The tangential probably reduces the available = power a little, but the undercarriage muffler adds drag. =20 But, for now, I'm concentrating real hard on getting my hours flown off. = =20 Best Regards, Steve Thomas "When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people = fear the government there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson _______________________________________________________ On Feb 5, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Marc, > I do not know "Mistral's" current status............I have their = backplate and oil manifold............You > might contact Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a complete = "Mistral" 13B engine........I do not > know how close he monitors this forum............... > =20 > Steve Thomas > =20 > Steve Thomas > =20 > =20 > Kelly Troyer > "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) >=20 > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >=20 > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Marc Wiese > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Mistral parts? >=20 > Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their = bankruptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped all that completely? Did = they sell to someone? > Marc > =20 > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:54 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings > =20 > In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, = Lehanover@aol.com writes: > Lynn, > Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation and = all the mention of torque > readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use "Antiseize" = which method > produces the most accurate and repeatable torque readings = ??............In my hunt for bolts > of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my = "Mistral" backplate to > my engine mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque from = the "ARP" (well known > fastener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation = includes the use of their > own brand of thread lubricant............... > =20 > Kelly Troyer > "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) > =20 > Well, any method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and = hole to hole can then produce repeatable torque readings within some = acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes = or many builders like STP because it clings to stuff so well. So, there = is a big range in tension developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a = bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and = another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of oil or, oil like = product. > =20 > Then all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower = band of tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything = works. So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back = each out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto = the threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you have to stop = the motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn and try = again. > =20 > If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench = click, then the bolt has not been torqued and shame on you. > =20 > Torque is called out to control some other factor. In this case how = much pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some = torsional stiffness. > =20 > In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a = tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed = Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple = on both ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and = you torque the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" = for rod bolts. It is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use = just during resizing you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally = torques rod bolts to 35 pounds for everything. > =20 > You want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched = to .007" That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and = lower oil temps). > =20 > The torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts = at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the = threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most = applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working range, = there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive = locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and = require much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out = with the bolt. > Or, Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt = head for safety wire. > =20 > The aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are = shear bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and = very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a hole = through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half = height castle nut from falling off.=20 > =20 > Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of Flight museum today. Went on all of = the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun. > =20 > Lynn E. Hanover > =20 --Apple-Mail-27-798145518 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Howdy everyone!  I'm sitting here lurking most = of the time, but admit that I don't read all the posts.  Here is an = update on the situation at Mistral.  The company has closed its = doors for now and is in the hands of a bankruptcy court.  However, = there is still a lot of interest in the company and they are continuing = to seek out either additional investors or a sale of the company with a = view to resume.  The court has given them an extension to work out = any possible plans.  

All of the employees that = were there before it closed are gone, most having sought out other = opportunities.  So, there is really no one to contact at this = point.  Will there be a revival of Mistral?  All of us who own = their engines sure hope so.  I hope to convince any new = owners/investors to get parts into the field, both whole engines and = individual parts.  One aspect of my engine that I really appreciate = is the hydraulic prop.  Works great. =  

If anything that is for public = consumption occurs, I will try to let everyone know. =  

On another subject, I now have over 22 = hours on my airplane.  I have been fighting an oil temperature = problem from the outset.  I've realized that I have an air intake = that is too big and an air exit that is too small.  Right now, I = can manage the oil temps to the point that I can safely fly, but will = need to make some major cowl mods somewhere down the road.  I want = to get my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my home airport and work = more efficiently.  The large intake scoop is also having a = detrimental effect on my top speed, both from drag and the need to keep = throttled back to watch the oil.  I can see that my cowl is = building up a lot of pressure, so I've got to get that resolved before I = will really know what this ship can do. =  

Also, I have found a muffler that works = great, but it is still hanging out in the breeze under the airplane. =  The muffler has cut the noise considerably.  I got it from = Burns Stainless.  it is one of their 2-stage mufflers.  But, I = am also fighting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, which I attribute to poor = cooling of the header.  So, I need to do some work there as well. =  I'd love to get the whole business under the cowl, so one of those = tangential muffler solutions with a cool air blast tube is probably in = my future.  The tangential probably reduces the available power a = little, but the undercarriage muffler adds drag. =  

But, for now, I'm concentrating real = hard on getting my hours flown off.  

Best = Regards,

Steve Thomas

"When the government fears the = people there is liberty; when the people fear the government = there is tyranny." = --Thomas Jefferson
_________________________________________= ______________

On Feb 5, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:

   I do not know = "Mistral's" current status............I have their backplate and oil = manifold............You
might = contact  Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a complete "Mistral" = 13B engine........I do not
know how = close he monitors this forum...............
Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
 Steve Thomas <steve@stevet.net>
 

Kelly = Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 = 12:16:23 PM
 [FlyRotary] Mistral = parts?

Will = Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankruptcy/withdrawal from = the market stopped all that completely? Did they sell to = someone?
Marc

 

 Rotary motors = in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 = 12:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts = and torque readings

 

In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern = Standard Time, Lehanover@aol.com writes:
Lynn,
readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement = to use "Antiseize" which method
produces the most accurate and repeatable torque = readings ??............In my hunt for bolts
of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" = mounts to bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to
my engine mount I obtained a lot of = info regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" (well = known
fastener = company)........Their torque procedure recommendation includes the = use of their
own = brand of thread lubricant...............

 

 Kelly Troyer
 

 

Well, any method of installation that is consistent = bolt to bolt and hole to hole can then produce repeatable torque = readings within some acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or = all motor oiled holes or many builders like STP because it clings to = stuff so well. So, there is a big range in tension developed between say = 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole = (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of = oil or, oil like product.

 

Then = all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of = tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. = So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back each = out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the = threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you have to stop the = motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn and try = again.

If it was not a single = motion from the last torque step to the wrench click, then the bolt = has  not been torqued and shame on you.

 

Torque is called out to control some other factor. In = this case how much pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam = stiffness and some torsional stiffness.

 

In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is = torqued into a tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS = (Standard Pressed Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The = great tension bolts have a dimple on both ends. You stick a = special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the bolt until = it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. It is best = to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resizing you = rods. The clown who runs that machine generally torques rod bolts to 35 = pounds for everything.

 

You = want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to = .007" That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and = lower oil temps).

 

The = torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts at all. = It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the threads = out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most applications = can be made of crap. Since not into their working range, there is no way = to keep them from backing out without some positive locking system. Not = Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and require much heat to kill = it before removal, lest the threads come out with the = bolt.
Or, = Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for = safety wire.

 

The = aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are shear = bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and very = lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a hole through = the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half height = castle nut from falling off. 

 

Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum = today. Went on all of the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 = while at Sun&Fun.

 

Lynn = E. Hanover