X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.74] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with SMTP id 4839354 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:30:52 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.74; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.68] by nm4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 18:30:15 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.11] by tm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 18:30:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1011.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 18:30:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 559212.91645.bm@omp1011.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 61173 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Feb 2011 18:30:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1296930613; bh=rgGQyy2aAHG0536UZCbxNVsewcyVwCtXhrrLMUxTBUU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wXD1RQmJWyAWEXb8cyDsvCuNC8BOABqF4nfeQmUneiPzb4JmadaIhzqmsVS+xtIqfWXlMvBzDE9UjCVWj0NbPYtlafoy5gerQ1j3HaegwDPe/6+I79jG8A5bU3LwVa0GTOhZ1E3HZ5cWgH/LnXinAJOlyHo4r2RDRHS0dlflp5Q= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=reHiwlZb2gaCBhNnzfVz1h65JGSLsIu1aaqBFjkIj7nVDr/4kbvZh9Zb8QGIo1vejU0INowGNTHFDDBzJcDHTvscYCakh49KWpjseL8q4lYirQfo3qwQyiRsAZV4RseENytxlMCmIeUTKh8gbWqXZxp7kvoGWkYXDm8Ot8GJdKI=; Message-ID: <882414.58439.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: PiX1k68VM1kyGrGCCtpxl3K34Txai1F_Cdr9mBWm4USbFw2 hsKvjvUXo7uO82qpC6yzha5b.Do5b_KaELCakzXJl3cT8AH8NFtfODyIjoy0 VfT9r1v.T_KlT7nFzjekE463QkbAyAyPJ0bQQ08LgxqPOenvuusOmf.5ZflN 26LfeojNS8mIYHhUdy_qpvRkBj5Vw9j2dPCxvoM.iHx_UUD7cvhe59q1qLQB 0oq46I5u9rd7_2omuEB1UqPTvH6FM3Sy99wMXhoPF9uy1_UTtq8qj.p752v4 NlAqVR3xd Received: from [208.114.45.24] by web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 10:30:13 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 10:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Mistral parts? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Cc: Steve Thomas , Steve Thomas In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-157075641-1296930613=:58439" --0-157075641-1296930613=:58439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc,=0A=A0=A0 I do not know "Mistral's" current status............I have t= heir backplate =0Aand oil manifold............You=0Amight contact=A0 Steve = Thomas (Glasair retract) with a complete "Mistral" 13B =0Aengine........I d= o not=0Aknow how close he monitors this forum...............=0A=0ASteve Tho= mas =0A=0A=A0Steve Thomas =0A=0A=0AKell= y Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1= C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Marc Wiese =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Mistral = parts?=0A=0A=0AWill Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankruptc= y/withdrawal from =0Athe market stopped all that completely? Did they sell = to someone?=0AMarc=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AF= rom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behal= f Of =0ALehanover@aol.com=0ASent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:54 AM=0ATo: = Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque = readings=0A=A0=0AIn a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard = Time, =0ALehanover@aol.com writes:=0ALynn,=0A>>=A0=A0 Forgive me=A0if I am = a little dense but after your explanation and all the =0A>>mention of=A0 to= rque=0A>>readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use "Antise= ize" which =0A>>method=0A>>produces the most accurate and repeatable=A0torq= ue readings ??............In my =0A>>hunt for bolts =0A>>=0A>>of the correc= t=A0thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my "Mistral" =0A>>ba= ckplate to =0A>>=0A>>my engine mount I obtained a lot of info=A0regarding b= olt torque from the "ARP" =0A>>(well known =0A>>=0A>>fastener company).....= ...Their torque procedure=A0recommendation includes the use =0A>>of their = =0A>>=0A>>own brand of thread lubricant...............=0A>>=A0=0A>>=A0Kelly= Troyer=0A>>"DYKE DELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A=A0=0AWell, any method of instal= lation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to =0Ahole can then produce= repeatable torque readings within some acceptable range. =0AAll dry holes = in one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders like STP =0Abecause= it clings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range in tension =0Adevelop= ed between say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a = =0Aclean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated with nearly= any =0Akind of oil or, oil like product. =0A=0A=A0=0AThen all of the oil l= ike products will produce a very much narrower band of =0Atension outcomes.= I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. So if the =0Abolt is = torqued up and you find some below torque, back each out in sequence one = =0Afull turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the threads and torque up i= n one =0Acontinuous motion. If you have to stop the motion before the wrenc= h clicks, then =0Aback up one full turn and try again.=0A=A0=0AIf it was no= t a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench click, =0Athen th= e bolt has=A0 not been torqued and shame on you.=0A=A0=0ATorque is called o= ut to control some other factor. In this case how much =0Apressure is on th= e stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some torsional =0Astiffness. = =0A=0A=A0=0AIn very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued i= nto a tensile =0Astress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pres= sed Steel) makes all =0Akinds of bolts. The great=A0tension bolts=A0have a = dimple on both ends. You stick a =0Aspecial dial indicator jig on these bol= ts and you torque the bolt until it has =0Astretched a specific amount, lik= e .007" for rod bolts. It is best to have a =0Aspare set of SPS bolts that = you use just during resizing you rods. The clown who =0Aruns that machine g= enerally torques rod bolts to 35 pounds for everything.=0A=A0=0AYou want yo= u rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to =0A.007"=A0Th= at is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil =0Atemp= s).=0A=A0=0AThe torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the = bolts at all. It =0Ais to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacki= ng the threads out of an =0Aaluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most= applications can be made of =0Acrap. Since not into their working range, t= here is no way to keep them from =0Abacking out without some positive locki= ng system. Not Locktite as it will glue =0Athe bolt in tight and require mu= ch heat to kill it before removal, lest the =0Athreads come out with the bo= lt.=0AOr, Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt h= ead for =0Asafety wire.=0A=A0=0AThe aircraft bolts with thin heads and very= short thread runs, are shear bolts. =0AAlways used in double shear to avoi= d a bending load, and very lightly torqued as =0Athey are poor in tension. = They have a hole through the threads for a safety pin =0Aor split cotter to= keep the half height castle nut from falling off.=A0=0A=A0=0AWent to Kermi= t Weeks Fantasy of=A0 Flight museum today. Went on all of the tours. =0AWel= l worth a side trip=A0up I-4 while at Sun&Fun. =0A=0A=A0=0ALynn E. Hanover --0-157075641-1296930613=:58439 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Marc,
=0A
   I do not know "Mist= ral's" current status............I have their backplate and oil manifold...= .........You
=0A
might contact  Steve Thomas (Glasair retract= ) with a complete "Mistral" 13B engine........I do not
=0A
know ho= w close he monitors this forum...............
=0A
 
=0A<= DIV>Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com= >
=0A
 
=0A
 Steve Thomas <steve@stevet.net>
=0A
 
= =0A
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELT= A JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROT= ARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

= =0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
S= ent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Mistral parts?
=0A=0A=0A
=0A

Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their b= ankruptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped all that completely? Did they = sell to someone?

=0A

Marc

=0A

 

= =0A
=0A
 =
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On= Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 = 12:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings

=0A

 

=0A
=0A

In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:= 00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Lehanover@= aol.com writes:

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Lynn,

=0A
=0A

   = Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation and all t= he mention of  torque

=0A
=0A

= re= adings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use "Antiseize" which = method

=0A
=0A

produces the most accu= rate and repeatable torque readings ??............In my hunt for bolts=

=0A
=0A

of the correct thread = length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to

=0A
=0A

my engine mount I obtained a lot = of info regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" (well known

=0A
=0A

own brand of thread lubricant...............

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A=

 Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Well, any method of installation that is co= nsistent bolt to bolt and hole to hole can then produce repeatable torque r= eadings within some acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or all mo= tor oiled holes or many builders like STP because it clings to stuff so wel= l. So, there is a big range in tension developed between say 25 pounds of t= orque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased= ) and another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of oil or, oil like prod= uct.

=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A

Then all of the oil like products will produc= e a very much narrower band of tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, = but nearly anything works. So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some b= elow torque, back each out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to = migrate onto the threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you hav= e to stop the motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn a= nd try again.

=0A
=0A

 =

=0A
=0A

If it was not a single motion from = the last torque step to the wrench click, then the bolt has  not been = torqued and shame on you.

=0A
=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nb= sp;

=0A
=0A

Torque is called out to c= ontrol some other factor. In this case how much pressure is on the stack, a= nd that controls beam stiffness and some torsional stiffness.

=0A
=0A

In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued i= nto a tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed= Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a = dimple on both ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts = and you torque the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007= " for rod bolts. It is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use j= ust during resizing you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally tor= ques rod bolts to 35 pounds for everything.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

You wan= t you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to .007"&nbs= p;That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil tem= ps).

=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A

The torque callouts for most bolts have nothi= ng to do with the bolts at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in= -law from jacking the threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in alumi= num for most applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working= range, there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive= locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and require= much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out with the bo= lt.

=0A
=0A

Or, Locktite= just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for safety wir= e.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A=
=0A

The aircraft bolts with thin heads and very shor= t thread runs, are shear bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bend= ing load, and very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a= hole through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half= height castle nut from falling off. 

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Went to = Kermit Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum today. Went on all of the tours= . Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Lynn E. Hanover

=0A
=0A

= &n= bsp;

--0-157075641-1296930613=:58439--