X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mta11.charter.net ([216.33.127.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTP id 4839339 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:16:59 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.80; envelope-from=cardmarc@charter.net Received: from imp11 ([10.20.200.11]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.09.02.04 201-2219-117-106-20090629) with ESMTP id <20110205181623.ZCPB6966.mta11.charter.net@imp11> for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:16:23 -0500 Received: from HomeDesktop ([97.94.192.116]) by imp11 with smtp.charter.net id 4JGN1g00K2X8M8p05JGNb5; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:16:23 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=_sn4f7L0wbSdKTYVfvEA:9 a=-V1UJhz0env2jEZWGkEA:7 a=dG6eeXCF2lLWlC8SK60E7zQihGgA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=typXEeL6pVhC0-Cv:21 a=wtHXmhwEXVVJHbNz:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=GlQ3MIDwk9MCvc8Dd6cA:9 a=99vw7_Q1jK3c-hn4HJsA:7 a=5eAnroi5Phcq2vJmzmNDObAOjiYA:4 From: "Marc Wiese" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Mistral parts? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 12:16:23 -0600 Message-ID: <004c01cbc560$cc22dc00$64689400$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01CBC52E.818ADD00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AcvFYMeUfEpMYBNfRGeF+54/tp0fAg== Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01CBC52E.818ADD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankruptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped all that completely? Did they sell to someone? Marc From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 8:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings We visited the Fantasy of Flight museum a couple of weeks ago. You really can not see everything you want to see in just one day! Kermit Weeks has more airplanes than Carter has Little Liver Pills! (an age test!) Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:54 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque readings In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Lehanover@aol.com writes: Lynn, Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your explanation and all the mention of torque readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use "Antiseize" which method produces the most accurate and repeatable torque readings ??............In my hunt for bolts of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to my engine mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" (well known fastener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation includes the use of their own brand of thread lubricant............... Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) Well, any method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to hole can then produce repeatable torque readings within some acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders like STP because it clings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range in tension developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of oil or, oil like product. Then all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back each out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you have to stop the motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn and try again. If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench click, then the bolt has not been torqued and shame on you. Torque is called out to control some other factor. In this case how much pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some torsional stiffness. In very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple on both ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. It is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resizing you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally torques rod bolts to 35 pounds for everything. You want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to .007" That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil temps). The torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working range, there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and require much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out with the bolt. Or, Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for safety wire. The aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are shear bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a hole through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half height castle nut from falling off. Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of Flight museum today. Went on all of the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01CBC52E.818ADD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Will Mistral = still sell subassemblies or has their bankruptcy/withdrawal from the = market stopped all that completely? Did they sell to = someone?

Marc

 

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 = 8:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque = readings

 

We= visited the Fantasy of Flight museum a couple of weeks ago.  You = really can not see everything you want to see in just one day!  = Kermit Weeks has more airplanes than Carter has Little Liver = Pills!  (an age test!)

 

Bi= ll B

 

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, = 2011 12:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Case bolts and torque = readings

 

I= n a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Lehanover@aol.com = writes:

L= ynn,

&= nbsp;  Forgive me if I am a little dense but after your = explanation and all the mention of  = torque

r= eadings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to use = "Antiseize" which method

p= roduces the most accurate and repeatable torque readings = ??............In my hunt for bolts

o= f the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to = bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to =

m= y engine mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque from = the "ARP" (well known

f= astener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation = includes the use of their

o= wn brand of thread = lubricant...............

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;Kelly Troyer
&= quot;DYKE DELTA JD2" = (E= ventually)<= o:p>

&= nbsp;

W= ell, any method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole = to hole can then produce repeatable torque readings within some = acceptable range. All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes = or many builders like STP because it clings to stuff so well. So, there = is a big range in tension developed between say 25 pounds of torque on a = bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and = another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of oil or, oil like = product.

&= nbsp;

T= hen all of the oil like products will produce a very much narrower band = of tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything = works. So if the bolt is torqued up and you find some below torque, back = each out in sequence one full turn to allow some lube to migrate onto = the threads and torque up in one continuous motion. If you have to stop = the motion before the wrench clicks, then back up one full turn and try = again.

&= nbsp;

I= f it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench = click, then the bolt has  not been torqued and shame on = you.

&= nbsp;

T= orque is called out to control some other factor. In this case how much = pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam stiffness and some = torsional stiffness.

&= nbsp;

I= n very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a = tensile stress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed = Steel) makes all kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have = a dimple on both ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these = bolts and you torque the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, = like .007" for rod bolts. It is best to have a spare set of SPS = bolts that you use just during resizing you rods. The clown who runs = that machine generally torques rod bolts to 35 pounds for = everything.

&= nbsp;

Y= ou want you rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to = .007" That is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP = and lower oil temps).

&= nbsp;

T= he torque callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts at = all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the = threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most = applications can be made of crap. Since not into their working range, = there is no way to keep them from backing out without some positive = locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and = require much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out = with the bolt.

O= r, Locktite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head = for safety wire.

&= nbsp;

T= he aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread runs, are shear = bolts. Always used in double shear to avoid a bending load, and very = lightly torqued as they are poor in tension. They have a hole through = the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to keep the half height = castle nut from falling off. 

&= nbsp;

W= ent to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum today. Went on all of = the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&Fun. =

&= nbsp;

L= ynn E. Hanover

&= nbsp;

------=_NextPart_000_004D_01CBC52E.818ADD00--