Received-SPF: none
 receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.204; envelope-from=keltro@att.net
DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
  s=s1024; d=att.net;
  h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
  b=JJJAMGniAAISpX+Wjo2dEtGGxTEa1oDZQd/NytvXGeqIxdz9EcbKvM1zGtGP3p/YHMl05yPuvdIIXFxqhonQDkeXdnGcRPdK4fuomEL/ZOBTkyKlhHDlpJhK22ByTiLFTQ6MW4/v5KF9Kc+Cwb03dVGs/Y5eW5hpW+vVaj2k2AA=;
Message-ID: <503035.39851.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <list-4836661@logan.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:07:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
Subject: Case bolts and torque readings
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-4836661@logan.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-413866820-1296749277=:39851"

--0-413866820-1296749277=:39851
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lynn,=0A=A0=A0 Forgive me=A0if I am a little dense but after your explanati=
on and all the =0Amention of=A0 torque=0Areadings based on "Dry Threads" th=
en your statement to use "Antiseize" which =0Amethod=0Aproduces the most ac=
curate and repeatable=A0torque readings ??............In my =0Ahunt for bol=
ts =0A=0Aof the correct=A0thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt t=
o my "Mistral" =0Abackplate to =0A=0Amy engine mount I obtained a lot of in=
fo=A0regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" =0A(well known =0A=0Afastener com=
pany)........Their torque procedure=A0recommendation includes the use =0Aof=
 their =0A=0Aown brand of thread lubricant...............=0A=0A=A0=A0 I can=
 understand that the early 13B (86-88) thin bolts are much less stiff in =
=0Atorsion and =0A=0Awould give less reliable torque readings than the =0Al=
ater=A0(89+)=A0bolts..............I personally will =0A=0Anot use the early=
 (86-88) bolts in my flying engines..............=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=0AKelly Tr=
oyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC=
2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Leha=
nover@aol.com>=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net=
>=0ASent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:54:07 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Case bolt=
s and torque readings=0A=0ACheck with Lynn I think you are to use the large=
r bolts ONLY, maybe can replace =0Aone at a time & not dissturb anything, I=
 do know that the larger bolts were used =0Aon the eng. that Bruce built.=
=A0=A0 David R. Cook=A0 RV6A=A0 =0A=0A>=0AThe torque idea is based on how m=
uch drag is generated between the rolled =0Athreads on the bolt and the cut=
 =0A=0Athreads in the hole. So, clean and dry for both sets of threads give=
 the highest =0Atorque reading per unit of bolt tension. One of those "Roun=
d-A-bout" methods of =0Arecovering data. =0A=0A=0AIf the threads are all un=
iform and the gizmo that torques them up was calibrated =0Athis morning, an=
d the clutch on the one that does number 9 has not run out of =0Alubricatio=
n again and is torqueing number into the stratosphere. =0A=0A=0AIn any case=
 we=A0count on=A0a completely dry hole and bolt=A0to predict an important =
=0Aoutcome.=0A=0ACase bolts are not torqued into their elastic range. This =
may have been the case =0Awith the reduced diameter=0Aearly bolts, but the =
full diameter bolts would probably deform=A0some pieces. The =0Athick bolts=
 produce a more uniform torque because they are stiffer in torsion. A =0Atr=
uly dry hole with the early bolts produce a stall and then a breakaway with=
 =0Aa=A0squeak. Then the torque is lost and the bolt must be turned further=
 and so-on. =0A=0A=0ASo, I just put anti seize on the threads and both side=
s of the washers. This is =0Awhat Racing Beat says to do.=0A=0AThis added t=
ension makes the stack stiffer in bending and torsion. It helps =0Arotor ho=
using deformation during detonation. This is where the loaded surface of =
=0Athe housing turns black from scrubbing on the irons. =0A=0A=0AIn high ou=
tput engines the spark plug side gets every hole oversized and dowels =0Aad=
ded. All of the case bolts outside the doweled area are over sized for adde=
d =0Atorsional stiffness. =0A=0A=0ASo, replacing a thin bolt with a thick b=
olt would produce a slightly=A0higher =0Atension, but not enough to matter,=
 so long as the bolt was dry and the hole is =0Adry. =0A=0A=0AIf the rear o=
f the engine is available, I would retorque the whole stack. Mark =0Athe bo=
lt heads and the iron with a dot from a Sharpie and be amazed by how many =
=0Abolts pull down further. =0A=0A=0AOne at a time in the proper order: tur=
n the bolt backwards one full revolution =0Awith a breaker bar not the torq=
ue wrench. Then with a calibrated clicker style =0Atorque tighten the bolt =
in one continuous motion until the wrench clicks the =0Afirst time.=A0=A0=
=0A=0ADo the whole sequence a second time. Not the loosen part, just check =
the torque =0Aagain. Several may move a bit more. =0A=0A=0ATorqueing a new =
build is different than an assembled and run engine. =0A=0ADownload the fre=
e Racing Beat manual and catalogue. Then read it..........=0A=0ALynn E. Han=
over
--0-413866820-1296749277=:39851
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Lynn,</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; Forgive me&nbsp;if =
I am a little dense but after your explanation and all the mention of&nbsp;=
 torque</DIV>=0A<DIV>readings based on "Dry Threads" then your statement to=
 use "Antiseize" which method</DIV>=0A<DIV>produces the most accurate and r=
epeatable&nbsp;torque readings ??............In my hunt for bolts </DIV>=0A=
<DIV>of the correct&nbsp;thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts to bolt to=
 my "Mistral" backplate to </DIV>=0A<DIV>my engine mount I obtained a lot o=
f info&nbsp;regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" (well known </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
fastener company)........Their torque procedure&nbsp;recommendation include=
s the use of their </DIV>=0A<DIV>own brand of thread lubricant.............=
..</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; I can understand that the =
early 13B (86-88) thin bolts are much less stiff in torsion and </DIV>=0A<D=
IV>would give less reliable torque readings than the later&nbsp;(89+)&nbsp;=
bolts..............I personally will </DIV>=0A<DIV>not use the early (86-88=
) bolts in my flying engines..............</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</DIV>=0A<P>Kelly Troyer<BR><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>"DYKE DELTA JD2"</F=
ONT> <FONT size=3D1>(Eventually)</FONT></STRONG></P>=0A<P>"13B ROTARY"_ Eng=
ine<BR>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2<BR>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold</P>=0A<P>"TUR=
BONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo</P>=0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: a=
rial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAM=
ILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=
=3D2 face=3DTahoma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">=
From:</SPAN></B> "Lehanover@aol.com" &lt;Lehanover@aol.com&gt;<BR><B><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Rotary motors in aircraft &lt;fl=
yrotary@lancaironline.net&gt;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:=
</SPAN></B> Thu, February 3, 2011 8:54:07 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIG=
HT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [FlyRotary] Case bolts and torque readings<BR=
></FONT><BR><FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>=
=0A<DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=
=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DArial>Check with Lynn I think you are to use the=
 larger bolts ONLY, maybe can replace one at a time &amp; not dissturb anyt=
hing, I do know that the larger bolts were used on the eng. that Bruce buil=
t.&nbsp;&nbsp; David R. Cook&nbsp; RV6A&nbsp; <BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A<D=
IV></DIV>=0A<DIV>The torque idea is based on how much drag is generated bet=
ween the rolled threads on the bolt and the cut </DIV>=0A<DIV>threads in th=
e hole. So, clean and dry for both sets of threads give the highest torque =
reading per unit of bolt tension. One of those "Round-A-bout" methods of re=
covering data. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>If the threads are all uni=
form and the gizmo that torques them up was calibrated this morning, and th=
e clutch on the one that does number 9 has not run out of lubrication again=
 and is torqueing number into the stratosphere. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=
=0A<DIV>In any case we&nbsp;count on&nbsp;a completely dry hole and bolt&nb=
sp;to predict an important outcome.</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Case b=
olts are not torqued into their elastic range. This may have been the case =
with the reduced diameter</DIV>=0A<DIV>early bolts, but the full diameter b=
olts would probably deform&nbsp;some pieces. The thick bolts produce a more=
 uniform torque because they are stiffer in torsion. A truly dry hole with =
the early bolts produce a stall and then a breakaway with a&nbsp;squeak. Th=
en the torque is lost and the bolt must be turned further and so-on. </DIV>=
=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>So, I just put anti seize on the threads and bo=
th sides of the washers. This is what Racing Beat says to do.</DIV>=0A<DIV>=
&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>This added tension makes the stack stiffer in bending a=
nd torsion. It helps rotor housing deformation during detonation. This is w=
here the loaded surface of the housing turns black from scrubbing on the ir=
ons. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>In high output engines the spark plu=
g side gets every hole oversized and dowels added. All of the case bolts ou=
tside the doweled area are over sized for added torsional stiffness. </DIV>=
=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>So, replacing a thin bolt with a thick bolt wou=
ld produce a slightly&nbsp;higher tension, but not enough to matter, so lon=
g as the bolt was dry and the hole is dry. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DI=
V>If the rear of the engine is available, I would retorque the whole stack.=
 Mark the bolt heads and the iron with a dot from a Sharpie and be amazed b=
y how many bolts pull down further. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>One a=
t a time in the proper order: turn the bolt backwards one full revolution w=
ith a breaker bar not the torque wrench. Then with a calibrated clicker sty=
le torque tighten the bolt in one continuous motion until the wrench clicks=
 the first time.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Do the whole =
sequence a second time. Not the loosen part, just check the torque again. S=
everal may move a bit more. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Torqueing a n=
ew build is different than an assembled and run engine. </DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp=
;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Download the free Racing Beat manual and catalogue. Then rea=
d it..........</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Lynn E. Hanover</DIV></DIV>=
</FONT></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
--0-413866820-1296749277=:39851--