X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTP id 4835449 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 09:55:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Inhw+Jdt7z1D3BivGPfn2aw54OvUEJw5lAn/booRZkE= c=1 sm=0 a=5cEzB9iR7eIA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=pkHdYfRahtUxG_2YumcA:9 a=y9EbtVYj92mrjD4GjNkA:7 a=l_PUZPf9WuP1kMEAFIPu1BJF80MA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=mBQJbtRyGmjzyAQ6qiwA:9 a=WJxd9F6i7RNDjjeP-8AA:7 a=AHxN56dSQC4phzhLObo-4ZBz1jIA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:51133] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id CE/09-13137-A40794D4; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:55:07 +0000 Message-ID: <9475279F10C644D18FD03FB424FA001B@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel line... Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:54:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBC2BF.346D6E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBC2BF.346D6E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would appear to me that if you are reaching temperatures in excess of = 325F under you cowl - you likely already have a fuel fire and so at that = point, it may not really matter what materials you have used. I = personally to not think temperature limitations are a factor at that = point - more importantly in my opinion are fatigue and abrasion = resistance to prevent the break in the first place. I had an aluminum brake line fatigue and break spraying hydraulic fluid = on the hot rotor resulting in ignition and some exciting few minutes as = the wheel pant/tire etc caught on fire. Fortunately, all ended well with = damaged limited to destroyed wheel pant and tire/tube. I then switched to stainless steel braided line with Teflon liner. = While it can also fail - it would probably do so a bit more gracefully = (like a growing leak) rather than a catastrophic failure like a break. I also use SS braided line as my fuel lines for over 10 years. My = belief was that the likelihood of a under the cowl fuel fire would like = be most possible from a compromised fuel line due to fatigue or abrasion = - so a SS Braided hose would be less likely to fail due to either of = those causes. All material discussed have been used and all can be made to work with = the proper attention to safe practices - in my case, SS Braided lines = made me feel more comfortable. I must admit I am biased against = aluminum tubing under the cowl - although I do use them in low pressure = lines back of the Firewall. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com =20 From: Dustin Lobner=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel line... It melts that high, but has lost most of its strength significantly = before that (400 degrees, depending on your definition of = "significantly"). Dustin On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:45 AM, wrjjrs@aol.com wrote: Ok guys I can understand the concern with fatigue in a vibrating = section, but even a stainless steel braided line will at best have a = teflon inner tube. That is good to about 325 degrees. Aluminium melts at = what, about 1200-1300 degrees. If you do use aluminium tubing use the = soft annealed stuff and use a flare or compression fitting on the ends. = How well you finish the install would probably be more important than = the material. Bill Jepson Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 02:30:23 GMT+00:00 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel line... Well, unfortunately!! :>) Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel line... Yeah, I try to avoid rubber fuel lines too. Stainless braid, = silicone,=20 fire-sleeved line; call me picky. And hopefully your firewall is not plastic...! Ernest Christley wrote: > Patrick wrote: >> Bill, >> I would suggest taking a propane torch to a piece of scrap = aluminum=20 >> (beer can) and a piece of stainless. It may affect your comfort=20 >> level about aluminum in the engine compartment. >> >> Personally, I would never use aluminum fuel line in front of the=20 >> firewall. >> >> Patrick > If you're going to do that, you might as well include those = rubbery=20 > pieces of fuel line in the test. And remember, you're telling that = to=20 > a guy who has the engine mounted to a plastic airplane 8*) > > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub:=20 > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBC2BF.346D6E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It would appear to me that if you are reaching=20 temperatures in excess of 325F under you cowl - you likely already = have a=20 fuel fire and so at that point, it may not really matter what=20 materials you have used.  I personally to not think = temperature=20 limitations are a factor at that point - more importantly in my=20 opinion are fatigue and abrasion resistance to prevent the break in = the=20 first place.
 
 I had an aluminum brake line fatigue and = break=20 spraying hydraulic fluid on the hot rotor resulting in ignition and some = exciting few minutes as the wheel pant/tire etc caught on fire. = Fortunately, all=20 ended well with damaged limited to destroyed wheel pant and=20 tire/tube.
 
I then switched to stainless steel braided = line with=20 Teflon liner.  While it can also fail - it would probably = do so a=20 bit more gracefully (like a growing leak) rather than a catastrophic = failure=20 like a break.
 
 I also use SS braided line as my fuel = lines for over=20 10 years.  My belief was that the likelihood of a under the cowl = fuel fire=20 would like be most possible from a compromised fuel line due to = fatigue or=20 abrasion - so a SS Braided hose would be less likely to fail due to = either=20 of those causes.
 
All material discussed have been used and all = can be made=20 to work with the proper attention to safe practices - in my case, SS = Braided=20 lines made me feel more comfortable.  I must admit I am biased = against=20 aluminum tubing under the cowl - although I do use them in low pressure = lines=20 back of the Firewall.
 
Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
  
 
 
 

Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:22 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel = line...

It melts that high, but has lost most of its strength=20 significantly before that (400 degrees, depending on your definition of=20 "significantly").

Dustin

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:45 AM, wrjjrs@aol.com <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:

Ok guys I = can=20 understand the concern with fatigue in a vibrating section, but even a = stainless steel braided line will at best have a teflon inner tube. = That is=20 good to about 325 degrees. Aluminium melts at what, about 1200-1300 degrees. If you do = use=20 aluminium tubing use the soft annealed stuff and use a flare or = compression=20 fitting on the ends. How well you finish the install would probably be = more=20 important than the material.
Bill Jepson
Sent via DROID on = Verizon=20 Wireless


-----Original message-----
From: = Bill=20 Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Wed, Feb=20 2, 2011 02:30:23 GMT+00:00
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al = Tubing in=20 fuel line...

Well, unfortunately!! :>)

Bill=20 B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of=20 Patrick
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:32 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Al Tubing in fuel = line...

Yeah,=20 I try to avoid rubber fuel lines too. Stainless braid, silicone,=20
fire-sleeved line; call me picky.

And hopefully your = firewall is=20 not plastic...!

Ernest Christley wrote:
> Patrick=20 wrote:
>> Bill,
>> I would suggest taking a = propane torch=20 to a piece of scrap aluminum
>> (beer can) and a piece of=20 stainless. It may affect your comfort
>> level about = aluminum in=20 the engine compartment.
>>
>> Personally, I would = never=20 use aluminum fuel line in front of the
>>=20 firewall.
>>
>> Patrick
> If you're going to = do=20 that, you might as well include those rubbery
> pieces of = fuel line=20 in the test. And remember, you're telling that to
> a guy who = has the=20 engine mounted to a plastic airplane 8*)
>
> --
> = Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and = UnSub:=20
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


--
Homepage:=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


--
Homepage:=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBC2BF.346D6E00--