X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTPS id 4827315 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:06:44 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ewy23 with SMTP id 23so424470ewy.25 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:06:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=g20D14PSRAkydUGg1x2ofFJ1sxF35LXWYZNDOY8ZXa4=; b=n0KNyUUvEdNIjjnoP1FYmmk4b0zzzzDTxaRBmiuuVYZYkC2SQLK4exJrmDYU6KXnyp 6sIyIvA3Nmf++upPEn3aER6txt0fqHxJyj11U7rtqCUwnxin1397RrCpdUFos3VyoQFw IGodpSSEZqFJ11maYBJmlvh38Z3oQcavlibUA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=QRfYj0JFzVKByMp/mVClkk7Pz0NkJE9lRykKie1z+Jtbp9AbrETPvtzbNwNJPwitmP 5cEb0mj+JFy+yIl0lFwuJ3J1sYjLh6xUtFPR5ewI+TkvIEgggUnfsesUZ4InPTaL8Q2B r24H8LGBpQdwVpGD8eSz8L7MskuglYiOI7daU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.17.147 with SMTP id s19mr1763996eba.89.1296068766515; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.28.142 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:06:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:06:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174bee006ec486049ac4869d --0015174bee006ec486049ac4869d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I take it to mean the solenoid, not the motor. Here is Tracy's post... Basically, anything that has an inductive load (relay, solenoid, etc) and i= s switched on and off should have a diode clamp unless the something about th= e design requires none. BTW, aside from the diode clamps, all those relays and contactors introduce more possibilities for routing problems in electrical systems. Yes, I know the theoretical reasons for having contactors and relays in aircraft but I didn't use any at all. Electronic engineer's mantra: Every wire is a resistor. Every wire is an inductor. Any two wires are a capacitor. Any two wires are a transformer. None of these components show up on a schematic. All of these components affect circuit performance. Nobody gets engineer jokes at a cocktail party. Tracy Mark On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > Mark, > > Are you talking about the primary of the starter solenoid? Mine has diod= es > across the primary. Isn=92t that supposed to catch the spikes?? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:05 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor positio= n > > > > Chris, > > > > Yes, overthinking problems is easy to do. I typically lean toward > underthinking problems. > > > > I was going to stop by on Saturday, but I experienced a corrupted MAP tab= le > incident just prior to departure. It didn't dawn on me initially what ha= d > hapened. But as soon as I looked at the map table I knew that it had bee= n > corrupted. I reloaded the factory table and it fixed the immediate > problem. Now I just need to figure out why it happened. Tracy suggested= it > may be a spike eminating from the starter solenoid. > > > > Mark > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Chris Barber > wrote: > > Mark, > > > > Thanks. That is what I was thinking but then I started over thinking it. > > > > Now I can focus on the other tasks at hand. Again, I believe it to be > timing related. When I turned the CAS, retarded I think (clockwise), it > seemed to crank a bit better on B. So, like I said, I may be a tooth off= . > At least it is a starting point. > > > > Isn't this fun.......:-\ > > > > Chris > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf > of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:06 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor positio= n > > Chris, > > > > The rear rotor will only fit one way as dictated by the eccentric shaft, > stationary gear and rotor housing. So, don't disassemble the motor again= ... > unless you just need something to do with your spare time. > > > > Mark > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Chris Barber > wrote: > > This may be the most stupid question posed on this site. > > > > Ok, first the update on my loss of compression in my rear rotor housing. = I > tore open the engine and everything looked really good, except, as expect= ed, > the springs for the apex seals had been flattened. Upon reflection, I al= so > remember removing the rear spark plug a while back and recall I replaced = it > due to the plug removed looked damaged. At the time, since the engine > seemed to be running ok (event though difficult to start), I didn=92t thi= nk > too much of it. However, now I realize that it was a clear indication of > detonation. > > > > Seems like a no brainer now, but sometimes I gotta be hit across the skul= l > with the obvious. Flame suite on but in the tradition of John Slade, I d= o > wish to post my failures to help others learn and to hopefully finally ge= t > it. > > > > Anyway, I got everything buttoned up and got it to start last night. I > reset all the EC2 parameters to the factory defaults. It did not run well= . > I could not even get it to start on the A computer, and it started after = a > lot of extended cranking on the B computer. It did not run great on B. = My > suspicion is that the timing is off. The B computer was tuned a long tim= e > ago and has not been updated. I plan to do a static timing check this > evening if I can get out to the hangar. I have gotten that process down > pretty good now. I think I may be off a tooth on the crank angle sensor.= I > think a combination of a lean mixture and bad timing may be the predomina= nt > factors in my detonation problem. I had a friend point out the obvious i= n > that the pinging I may have thought I would hear would not be too likely > with the noise of the prop. DOH! > > > > I did do the EC2 check and the injectors are clicking dutifully and I saw > strong spark on all plugs. > > > > Ok, here is the stupid question and a major bonehead moment. I remember > that you must =93 clock =93 the rear rotor to the front rotor when instal= ling > them. However, when I installed the rear rotor the other day I placed it > where I though it needed to go base on when I removed it, however, I can= =92t > remember now if I actually got it back in the right position in relation = to > the front rotor. I was thinking it is only gonna fit one way based on th= e > position of the e-shaft to the chamber walls. Is this so, or could I hav= e > it out of position? I am having visions of me getting it to start with t= he > rear rotor out of position, thus only running on the front rotor while > banging the hell out of the rear rotor. Would it even start if this wer= e > so? > > > > If I gotta tear it down to check, I will and as mentioned, cracking open = is > not all that big a deal anymore. Other than this obvious brain fart, I a= m > understanding the process much better=85.rote practice does this. > > > > Thanks guys/gals. > > > > Chris Barberfly > > > > > --0015174bee006ec486049ac4869d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
=A0
I take it to mean the solenoid, not the motor.=A0 Here is Tracy's = post...
=A0
<quote>
Basically, anything that has an inductive load (relay, solenoid, etc) = and is switched on and off should have a diode clamp unless the something a= bout the design requires none.
=A0
BTW, aside from the diode clamps, all those relays and contactors intr= oduce more possibilities for routing problems in electrical systems.=A0 Yes= , I know the theoretical reasons for having contactors and relays in aircra= ft but I didn't use any at all.=A0
=A0
Electronic engineer's mantra:
Every wire is a resistor.
Every wire is an inductor.
Any two wir= es are a capacitor.
Any two wires are a transformer.
None of these co= mponents show up on a schematic.
All of these components affect circuit = performance.
Nobody gets engineer jokes at a cocktail party.
=A0
Tracy

<end quote>
=A0
Mark

=A0
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Bill Bradburry= <bbradbur= ry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Mark,

Are you talking= about the primary of the starter solenoid?=A0 Mine has diodes across the p= rimary.=A0 Isn=92t that supposed to catch the spikes??

=A0

Bill B

=A0


From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, January 26= , 2011 11:05 AM
To: Rota= ry motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position

=A0

Chris,

=A0

Yes, overthinking problems is=A0easy to do.=A0 I typi= cally lean toward underthinking problems.=A0 =A0

=A0

I was going to stop by on Saturday, but I experienced= a corrupted MAP table incident just prior to departure.=A0 It didn't d= awn on me initially what had hapened.=A0 But as soon as I looked at the map= table I=A0knew that=A0it had been corrupted.=A0 I reloaded the factory tab= le and it=A0fixed the immediate problem.=A0 Now I just need to figure out w= hy it happened.=A0=A0Tracy suggested it may be a spike eminating from the s= tarter solenoid.=A0

=A0

Mark=A0

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasat= torney.net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

Thanks.=A0 That is what I was t= hinking but then I started=A0over thinking it.

=A0

Now I can focus on the other ta= sks at hand.=A0 Again, I=A0believe it to be timing related.=A0 When I turne= d the CAS, retarded I think (clockwise), it seemed to crank a bit better on= B.=A0 So, like I said, I may be a tooth off. At least it is a starting poi= nt.

=A0

Isn't this fun.......:-\

=A0

Chris


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t] on behalf of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26= , 2011 9:06 AM
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position

Chris, <= /p>

=A0

<= /div>

The rear rotor will on= ly fit one way as dictated by the eccentric shaft, stationary gear and roto= r housing.=A0 So,=A0don't disassemble the motor again... unless you jus= t need something to do with your spare time.

=A0

<= /div>

Mark

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 a= t 8:50 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:

This may be the most s= tupid question posed on this site.=A0

=A0

Ok, first the update o= n my loss of compression in my rear rotor housing.=A0 I tore open the engin= e and everything looked really good, except, as expected, the springs for t= he apex seals had been flattened.=A0 Upon reflection, I also remember remov= ing the rear spark plug a while back and recall I replaced it due to the pl= ug removed looked damaged.=A0 At the time, since the engine seemed to be ru= nning ok (event though difficult to start), I didn=92t think too much of it= .=A0 However, now I realize that it was a clear indication of detonation.

=A0

Seems like a no braine= r now, but sometimes I=A0gotta be hit across the skull with the obvious.=A0= Flame suite on but in the tradition of John Slade, I do wish to post my fa= ilures to help others learn and to hopefully finally get it.<= /p>

=A0

Anyway, I got everythi= ng buttoned up and got it to start last night.=A0 I reset all the=A0EC2 par= ameters to the factory defaults. It did not run well.=A0 I could not even g= et it to start on the A computer, and it started after a lot of extended cr= anking on the B computer.=A0 It did not run great on B.=A0 My suspicion is = that the timing is off.=A0 The B computer was tuned a long time ago and has= not been updated.=A0 I plan to do a static timing check this evening if I = can get out to the hangar.=A0 I have gotten that process down pretty good n= ow.=A0 I think I may be off a tooth on the crank angle sensor.=A0 I think a= combination of a lean mixture and bad timing may be the predominant factor= s in my detonation problem.=A0 I had a friend point out the obvious in that= the pinging I may have thought I would hear would not be too likely with t= he noise of the prop.=A0 DOH!

=A0

I did do the=A0EC2 che= ck and the injectors are clicking dutifully and I saw strong spark on all p= lugs.

=A0

Ok, here is the stupid= question and a major bonehead moment.=A0 I remember that you must =93 cloc= k =93 the rear rotor to the front rotor when installing them.=A0 However, w= hen I installed the rear rotor the other day I placed it where I though it = needed to go base on when I removed it, however, I can=92t remember now if = I actually got it back in the right position in relation to the front rotor= .=A0 I was thinking it is only=A0gonna fit one way based on the position of= the e-shaft to the chamber walls.=A0 Is this so, or could I have it out of= position?=A0 I am having visions of me getting it to start with the rear r= otor out of position, thus only running on the front rotor while banging th= e hell out of the rear rotor. =A0=A0Would it even start if this were so?

=A0

If I=A0gotta tear it d= own to check, I will and as mentioned, cracking open is not all that big a = deal anymore.=A0 Other than this obvious brain fart, I am understanding the= process much better=85.rote practice does this.

=A0

Thanks guys/gals.

=A0

Chris Barberfly

=A0

<= /div>

=A0

<= br> --0015174bee006ec486049ac4869d--