X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTP id 4827269 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:07:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.104; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-106-221.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.106.221]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20110126180658H040015icqe>; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:06:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.106.221] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:07:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CBBD59.F89B56E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acu9cuXUf2zHZfFnQiKpVhCre09M3gAD4NiQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CBBD59.F89B56E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Are you talking about the primary of the starter solenoid? Mine has diodes across the primary. Isn't that supposed to catch the spikes?? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position Chris, Yes, overthinking problems is easy to do. I typically lean toward underthinking problems. I was going to stop by on Saturday, but I experienced a corrupted MAP table incident just prior to departure. It didn't dawn on me initially what had hapened. But as soon as I looked at the map table I knew that it had been corrupted. I reloaded the factory table and it fixed the immediate problem. Now I just need to figure out why it happened. Tracy suggested it may be a spike eminating from the starter solenoid. Mark On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Chris Barber wrote: Mark, Thanks. That is what I was thinking but then I started over thinking it. Now I can focus on the other tasks at hand. Again, I believe it to be timing related. When I turned the CAS, retarded I think (clockwise), it seemed to crank a bit better on B. So, like I said, I may be a tooth off. At least it is a starting point. Isn't this fun.......:-\ Chris _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:06 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Most stupid question here ever...rotor position Chris, The rear rotor will only fit one way as dictated by the eccentric shaft, stationary gear and rotor housing. So, don't disassemble the motor again... unless you just need something to do with your spare time. Mark On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Chris Barber wrote: This may be the most stupid question posed on this site. Ok, first the update on my loss of compression in my rear rotor housing. I tore open the engine and everything looked really good, except, as expected, the springs for the apex seals had been flattened. Upon reflection, I also remember removing the rear spark plug a while back and recall I replaced it due to the plug removed looked damaged. At the time, since the engine seemed to be running ok (event though difficult to start), I didn't think too much of it. However, now I realize that it was a clear indication of detonation. Seems like a no brainer now, but sometimes I gotta be hit across the skull with the obvious. Flame suite on but in the tradition of John Slade, I do wish to post my failures to help others learn and to hopefully finally get it. Anyway, I got everything buttoned up and got it to start last night. I reset all the EC2 parameters to the factory defaults. It did not run well. I could not even get it to start on the A computer, and it started after a lot of extended cranking on the B computer. It did not run great on B. My suspicion is that the timing is off. The B computer was tuned a long time ago and has not been updated. I plan to do a static timing check this evening if I can get out to the hangar. I have gotten that process down pretty good now. I think I may be off a tooth on the crank angle sensor. I think a combination of a lean mixture and bad timing may be the predominant factors in my detonation problem. I had a friend point out the obvious in that the pinging I may have thought I would hear would not be too likely with the noise of the prop. DOH! I did do the EC2 check and the injectors are clicking dutifully and I saw strong spark on all plugs. Ok, here is the stupid question and a major bonehead moment. I remember that you must " clock " the rear rotor to the front rotor when installing them. However, when I installed the rear rotor the other day I placed it where I though it needed to go base on when I removed it, however, I can't remember now if I actually got it back in the right position in relation to the front rotor. I was thinking it is only gonna fit one way based on the position of the e-shaft to the chamber walls. Is this so, or could I have it out of position? I am having visions of me getting it to start with the rear rotor out of position, thus only running on the front rotor while banging the hell out of the rear rotor. Would it even start if this were so? If I gotta tear it down to check, I will and as mentioned, cracking open is not all that big a deal anymore. Other than this obvious brain fart, I am understanding the process much better..rote practice does this. Thanks guys/gals. Chris Barberfly ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CBBD59.F89B56E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

Are you talking about the primary = of the starter solenoid?  Mine has diodes across the primary.  = Isn’t that supposed to catch the spikes??

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 11:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Most stupid question here ever...rotor position

 

Chris,

 

Yes, overthinking problems is easy to do.  I typically = lean toward underthinking problems.    =

 

I was going to stop by on Saturday, but I experienced a = corrupted MAP table incident just prior to departure.  It didn't dawn on me = initially what had hapened.  But as soon as I looked at the map table = I knew that it had been corrupted.  I reloaded the factory table and it fixed the immediate problem.  Now I just need to figure out = why it happened.  Tracy suggested it may be a spike eminating from the starter solenoid.  =

 

Mark 

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net&g= t; wrote:

Mark,

 

Thanks.  That is what I was = thinking but then I started over thinking it.

 

Now I can focus on the other tasks at hand.  Again, I believe it to be timing related.  When I = turned the CAS, retarded I think (clockwise), it seemed to crank a bit better = on B.  So, like I said, I may be a tooth off. At least it is a = starting point.

 

Isn't this = fun.......:-\

 

Chris

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 9:06 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Most stupid question here ever...rotor position

Chris, =

 

The rear rotor will only fit one = way as dictated by the eccentric shaft, stationary gear and rotor = housing.  So, don't disassemble the motor again... unless you just need = something to do with your spare time.

 

Mark

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 8:50 AM, = Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:

This may be the most stupid = question posed on this site. 

 

Ok, first the update on my loss = of compression in my rear rotor housing.  I tore open the engine and everything looked really good, except, as expected, the springs for the = apex seals had been flattened.  Upon reflection, I also remember = removing the rear spark plug a while back and recall I replaced it due to the plug = removed looked damaged.  At the time, since the engine seemed to be running = ok (event though difficult to start), I didn’t think too much of = it.  However, now I realize that it was a clear indication of = detonation.

 

Seems like a no brainer now, but = sometimes I gotta be hit across the skull with the obvious.  Flame suite = on but in the tradition of John Slade, I do wish to post my failures to help = others learn and to hopefully finally get it.

 

Anyway, I got everything buttoned = up and got it to start last night.  I reset all the EC2 parameters to = the factory defaults. It did not run well.  I could not even get it to = start on the A computer, and it started after a lot of extended cranking on = the B computer.  It did not run great on B.  My suspicion is that = the timing is off.  The B computer was tuned a long time ago and has = not been updated.  I plan to do a static timing check this evening if I can = get out to the hangar.  I have gotten that process down pretty good = now.  I think I may be off a tooth on the crank angle sensor.  I think a combination of a lean mixture and bad timing may be the predominant = factors in my detonation problem.  I had a friend point out the obvious in = that the pinging I may have thought I would hear would not be too likely with the = noise of the prop.  DOH!

 

I did do the EC2 check and = the injectors are clicking dutifully and I saw strong spark on all = plugs.

 

Ok, here is the stupid question = and a major bonehead moment.  I remember that you must “ clock = “ the rear rotor to the front rotor when installing them.  However, when = I installed the rear rotor the other day I placed it where I though it = needed to go base on when I removed it, however, I can’t remember now if I = actually got it back in the right position in relation to the front rotor.  = I was thinking it is only gonna fit one way based on the position of the = e-shaft to the chamber walls.  Is this so, or could I have it out of position?  I am having visions of me getting it to start with the = rear rotor out of position, thus only running on the front rotor while = banging the hell out of the rear rotor.   Would it even start if this were = so?

 

If I gotta tear it down to = check, I will and as mentioned, cracking open is not all that big a deal = anymore.  Other than this obvious brain fart, I am understanding the process much better….rote practice does this.

 

Thanks = guys/gals.

 

Chris = Barberfly

 

 

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