X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c1) with ESMTP id 4791433 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:56:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=3jtQBdTzPyV+fq4oCU/u8ZPrJJGN11HvhaDVxyWhycI= c=1 sm=0 a=ff6Ms8F4sgIA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=wrnlkVK_AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=WP8oVI0XxfY6WvtJiWsA:9 a=SA0nxJKdSaChq5PziB8A:7 a=i9ZRm446WmAHikUTN036x-ctohoA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=Daxt9cw3uGXjeaA_:21 a=VqNNfuzQyZNoBMoF:21 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=v-I3phdADb5NFwgptj4A:9 a=tTmXOJcMX9rpczIvM4QA:7 a=Dk2QBsByMeWhlcrA0aqA9WKunzcA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=YAazWJEtRtmkNiAq:21 a=5xPAGpVWn4AV7VhK:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:59823] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id B1/2C-02631-889073D4; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:55:52 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] MAP table corruption? Nope! fuel filters! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:55:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01CBB7C7.5E5BF1D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CBB7C7.5E5BF1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hard to be certain what is causing it Bill. However, the use of ethenaol in gas always raises my concern about its = effects of polymers used in fuel hoses and seals.=20 You indicated no/little of the particle in the secondary filter - it = could be as you indicated the small amount being due to lack of much = use of the secondary pump OR it could be it's a pump failure indication = in your primary line and that is why your primary filter is picking up = the crud rather than your secondary. =20 If impending pump failure - I would expect to see a drop in fuel = pressure - so the question is whether the drop you were seeing is due to = the filter clogging or the pump failing (possibly both). The point is = that the crud could be coming from someplace other than your pump and = simply clogging up the main filter because it's the one used the most = and your pump could be OK. =20 Ed . =20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:33 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] MAP table corruption? Nope! fuel filters! Well, the MAP table was ok. The problem was my high pressure fuel = filter on the primary fuel pump. There were a lot of black particles in = the filter that had it blocked. The secondary filter was clean but had = only been run for a few minutes. This is the second time I found black = material in this filter. The first time was about 40 gallons ago. This = previous material was somewhat gooey and I thought that it may have come = from not properly cleaning my hoses out after I made them. This time = the material looked like tiny black particles. I don't think they came = from the hoses, but if not, they must have come from the pump itself. =20 My fuel system is ..from the wing tanks: a finger strainer in the outlet = of the tank, then to a fuel selector valve, then thru a boost pump, then = to a Gascolator, then to either of primary or secondary fuel pump, then = a filter after each pump, then fuel rail, then fuel pressure regulator, = then excess fuel returns thru the selector valve to the tank I am using = from. =20 I haven't yet checked my finger strainers because they are a bitch to = get to, but my Gascolator did not have any of the black particles in it. = It had a small amount of white fuzz that is probably fiberglass dust = from my fuel tanks in it. This leaves me a section of -8 hose about 14 = inches long or the fuel pump to be the source of the black particles. = Oh yeah, the finger strainers and the Gascolator are both able to move = fuel. I emptied both tanks of about 15 gal of fuel so that I could try = and check the finger strainers. The boost pump filled a 5 gal can in 2 = or 3 minutes pumping thru the strainers and Gascolator. My fuel lines = up to the FI pumps are all either =BD inch or -8 in size. After the FI = pumps the fuel lines go to -6 to the regulator and -4 to return to the = tanks. =20 Is anyone else seeing this kind of material in their filters? =20 Also, since this occurred with about a tank of gas since I last cleaned = the filters, I am concerned about the capacity of the fuel filters I am = using. I am using Summit filters like the one here. =20 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-230105/ =20 This filter has a small screen that is about =BE inch in diameter and is = 40 microns, so when it gets very little contamination, it plugs. I am = thinking it would be fine for a drag car, but not for hours of flight = unless your system was so clean you didn't need it in the first place. =20 I originally had one filter in the system, but became concerned and = added another one. Now I am wondering if I should go to the type of = filter that looks like an oil filter and if I do, would one be = sufficient or should I try and put in two filters of that type. I have = very little space to add this type of filter and I don't know if it = would even be possible to add two of them. I would really appreciate = any input you guys could give and possibly some pics of your = installation if you are using the oil filter type. Do these type have = the capacity to flow fuel when they get contaminated or will they block = like these small in line filters?=20 =20 Fuel starvation is a major cause of experimental plane crashes and I am = close enough to be thinking of flying. :>) Hep me! Hep me! =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 5:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex seals and MAP table corruption? =20 I may be taking it back what I said about the MAP table. During my = runup today, I noticed that the fuel pressure was dropping. At full = WOT, the pressure dropped to below 20 psi. I engaged the secondary fuel = pump and the pressure came back to the 40 lb range. It appears that my = fuel filter after the primary pump may be partially clogged. I will = clean them tomorrow and let you know what I find. =20 Bill B =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CBB7C7.5E5BF1D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hard to be certain what is causing it = Bill.
 
However, the use of ethenaol in gas always = raises my=20 concern about its effects of polymers used in fuel hoses and seals.=20
 
You indicated no/little of the particle in the = secondary=20 filter - it could be as you indicated  the small amount = being due to=20 lack of much use of the secondary pump  OR it could be = it=92s a=20 pump failure indication in your primary line and that is why your = primary filter=20 is picking up the crud rather than your secondary. 
 
If impending pump failure - I would expect to = see a drop=20 in fuel pressure - so the question is whether the drop you were seeing = is due to=20 the filter clogging  or the pump failing (possibly = both).  The=20 point is that the crud could be coming from someplace other than your = pump and=20 simply clogging up the main filter because it=92s the one used the most = and your=20 pump could be OK. 
 
 
Ed
 
. 

From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:33 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] MAP table corruption? Nope! fuel=20 filters!

Well, the MAP = table was=20 ok.  The problem was my high pressure fuel filter on the primary = fuel=20 pump.  There were a lot of black particles in the filter that had = it=20 blocked.  The secondary filter was clean but had only been run for = a few=20 minutes.  This is the second time I found black material in this=20 filter.  The first time was about 40 gallons ago.  This = previous=20 material was somewhat gooey and I thought that it may have come from not = properly cleaning my hoses out after I made them.  This time the = material=20 looked like tiny black particles.  I don=92t think they came from = the hoses,=20 but if not, they must have come from the pump=20 itself.

 

My fuel = system is=20 ..from the wing tanks: a finger strainer in the outlet of the tank, then = to a=20 fuel selector valve, then thru a boost pump, then to a Gascolator, then = to=20 either of primary or secondary fuel pump, then a filter after each pump, = then=20 fuel rail, then fuel pressure regulator, then excess fuel returns thru = the=20 selector valve to the tank I am using from.

 

I haven=92t = yet checked=20 my finger strainers because they are a bitch to get to, but my = Gascolator did=20 not have any of the black particles in it.  It had a small amount = of white=20 fuzz that is probably fiberglass dust from my fuel tanks in it.  = This=20 leaves me a section of -8 hose about 14 inches long or the fuel pump to = be the=20 source of the black particles.  Oh yeah, the finger strainers and = the=20 Gascolator are both able to move fuel.  I emptied both tanks of = about 15=20 gal of fuel so that I could try and check the finger strainers.  = The boost=20 pump filled a 5 gal can in 2 or 3 minutes pumping thru the strainers and = Gascolator.  My fuel lines up to the FI pumps are all either =BD = inch or -8=20 in size.  After the FI pumps the fuel lines go to -6 to the = regulator and=20 -4 to return to the tanks.

 

Is anyone = else seeing=20 this kind of material in their filters?

 

Also, since = this=20 occurred with about a tank of gas since I last cleaned the filters, I am = concerned about the capacity of the fuel filters I am using.  I am = using=20 Summit filters=20 like the one here.

 

http://www.summitr= acing.com/parts/SUM-230105/

 

This filter = has a small=20 screen that is about =BE inch in diameter and is 40 microns, so when it = gets very=20 little contamination, it plugs.  I am thinking it would be fine for = a drag=20 car, but not for hours of flight unless your system was so clean you = didn=92t need=20 it in the first place.

 

I originally = had one=20 filter in the system, but became concerned and added another one.  = Now I am=20 wondering if I should go to the type of filter that looks like an oil = filter and=20 if I do, would one be sufficient or should I try and put in two filters = of that=20 type.  I have very little space to add this type of filter and I = don=92t know=20 if it would even be possible to add two of them.  I would really = appreciate=20 any input you guys could give and possibly some pics of your = installation if you=20 are using the oil filter type.  Do these type have the capacity to = flow=20 fuel when they get contaminated or will they block like these small in = line=20 filters?

 

Fuel = starvation is a=20 major cause of experimental plane crashes and I am close enough to be = thinking=20 of flying.  :>)    Hep me!  Hep=20 me!

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 = 5:24=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex = seals and MAP=20 table corruption?

 

I may be = taking it back=20 what I said about the MAP table.  During my runup today, I noticed = that the=20 fuel pressure was dropping.  At full WOT, the pressure dropped to = below 20=20 psi.  I engaged the secondary fuel pump and the pressure came back = to the=20 40 lb range.  It appears that my fuel filter after the primary pump = may be=20 partially clogged.  I will clean them tomorrow and let you know = what I=20 find.

 

Bill=20 B

 

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