X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4665805 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:34:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=pepdxKapwHuwCZNFD5uob2wvham6E+RljB0uXw08FdQ= c=1 sm=0 a=Oc4cXmvJwEcA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=0W0xTXeVAAAA:8 a=JF-hzXSlscI45NYJQbsA:9 a=ChtFihTulXffr6Sti78A:7 a=8Nh-XjSB9wEvi-cDjuqaQ87qt3EA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=9j5m576BwKIA:10 a=muAW_ZO2O9W4JEAg:21 a=qoOepmi5hcGaNbUI:21 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=hzVb-OY6a3k6yuvGfnMA:9 a=c55x1TJ5gfnROjOLdDUA:7 a=Nl8F5bRii1u9lJbFkhRbF9Vn03MA:4 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=RyfviU8GUkBRvcHs:21 a=tNJT6whNwtjA2HUF:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:55186] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id A7/F2-19545-BC4C52D4; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:34:04 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Stuck Seals? [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem possibly found. Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 08:33:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01CBAD7C.722023D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CBAD7C.722023D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I once had all six apex seal stuck in their slots due to exposure = to humid summer weather for six weeks (manifolds were off and the engine = had just been severly flooded washing all the oil off the seals). I = removed the exhaust manifold and taking a "soft" brass rod (aluminum = would probably work OK as well), I managed by carefully pushing on the = seal through the exhaust port to work 5 of the six stuck seals loose. = Now if you have the exhaust splitters (I don't) this might be a bit = tougher - but you might give it a try. The seal should move up and down = somewhere around an 1/8" or a bit more. Ed From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 9:30 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem possibly found. Yep, I do premix. =20 Could it be due to my previous low oil pressure...sure, I suppose. = Don't really know. Figured I would get various thoughts here. I did check the seals through the spark plug holes back when I had to = pull the engine a few months ago, however, at that time I DID have one = in the same chamber that was sticking a bit, but SEEMED to dislodge and = be ok. However, this time, the one does not really move and the other one moves = in the channel but has no spring, thus my suspicion of a broken spring = set. I can only speculate now as to what is the cause. I do kinda like Marks suggestion that I may not have to remove then = engine from the plane. I will be giving that priority consideration. Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of David Moyer [davidm@remconinc.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 8:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem possibly found. Could this have been due to the low oil level you had Chris and low oil = pressure? Not too sure. I am assuming you are premixing the two-cycle = oil in with the fuel. Sure wish this didn't happen to you Chris, you = have had a time of it. I guess you are right you will know that engine = inside and out.=20 David Moyer On 01/05/2011 07:21 PM, Chris Barber wrote:=20 Obviously, I am in serious need of adult supervision. That being said, I am trying to address this latest issue in as = philosophical a manner as possible. As of late, since I got my EC2 back from Tracy, I have had a serious = hot start issue. The engine seemed to run ok once started and seem to = start pretty easily when cold.=20 A few weeks ago I thought I had an oil pressure again but as I have = stated earlier it seems that I was just low on oil. Thinking I was = going to have to pull then engine I removed my prop. Out of curiosity I = started the engine a few times keeping the rpm's very low....below about = 3000 rpm. The engine started pretty easily, even when hot, even though = it did surge until I played with the mixture. I replaced the prop and I = have the hot start problem again. So, I thought I would start with basics again. After doing the EC2 = test modes, I figured I would pull the plugs and have a look see. The = plugs looked as expected (the leading plugs more blackish, the trailing = more brownish, but both pair matched). =20 Last time (two times actually) when I had very hard hot start it was = due to coolant leaking into the rotor housings. The first time due to = my ignorance following a build of one engine from three, not having good = sensors and overheating the engine. The second time due to a brand new = center housing coolant galley wall failing. DOH! Since I recognized the symptoms, I looked for the same issues ie green = coolant in the rotor housing. There was none (figured since the plugs = looked good). The second time I could crank the engine as watch coolant = shoot across my wing....not good. So, this time, no coolant. So, I figured I would check the apex seals = by looking inside the spark plug holes. All three of the front seals = looked good and were nice and springy when I probed them gently with a = screwdriver. So, I moved the rear housing. Uh, damn. Two of the = seals were funky. One had no real movement. The second one moved = around fine but had NO springiness at all. Ok, so I am "suspicious" ;-), so I break out the pressure gage. = Checked the front chamber for sake of comparison and it gave me three = nice pulses around 80lbs. Did the same for the rear and it was = inconsistent at 30 to 60 lbs. Got out some penetrant and sprayed on the = seals to no avail. Seems I have read some tricks for a stuck apex seal, = but not for one that seems to have defective/broken springs. So, is appears I will be pulling the engine off once again and replace = at least the apex seal springs on the rear housing. Now, if any of you = fine gentlemen and ladies have some nice little solution that would = allow me to not take such drastic action, I am open to such suggestion. = I figured it will take a few days to get new springs in the mail, so I = will have time to pull the engine and prepare everything. If I recall = correctly, I may not have to "break the seal" to the front rotor housing = at all...or so I hope. I am having to try to remember what it will take = to put the rear housing back on, such as what parts I will remove that = need to be replaced and not be able to be reused. Money is tight right = now, so the less the better. =20 I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in this = allegedly robust engine :-) before flight. Ed, I leave the = gliding championship to you. I must admit that the idea of pulling the = engine is not quite as daunting since I have moved past the proof of = concept mode and have got my flight ready install pretty much set. This = makes the engine removal, and then the re-install much more of a = methodical process than a somewhat overwhelming dismantling...guess = practice makes perfect. . All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CBAD7C.722023D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris, I once had all six apex seal stuck in = their slots=20 due to exposure to humid summer weather for six weeks (manifolds were = off and=20 the engine had just been severly flooded washing all the oil off the=20 seals).  I removed the exhaust manifold and taking a "soft" brass = rod=20 (aluminum would probably work OK as well), I managed by carefully = pushing on the=20 seal through the exhaust port to work 5 of the six stuck seals = loose.  Now=20 if you have the exhaust splitters (I don't) this might be a bit tougher = - but=20 you might give it a try.  The seal should move up and down = somewhere around=20 an 1/8" or a bit more.
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 9:30 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem possibly=20 found.

Yep, I do premix. 

 

Could it be due to my previous low oil pressure...sure, I = suppose. =20 Don't really know.  Figured I would get various thoughts here.

 

I did check the seals through the spark plug holes back when I = had to=20 pull the engine a few months ago, however, at that time I DID have one = in the=20 same chamber that was sticking a bit, but SEEMED to dislodge and be = ok.

 

However, this time, the one does not really move and the other one = moves in=20 the channel but has no spring, thus my suspicion of a broken = spring=20 set.  I can only speculate now as to what is the cause.

 

I do kinda like Marks suggestion that = I may=20 not have to remove then engine from the plane.  I will be giving = that=20 priority consideration.

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of David Moyer [davidm@remconinc.com]
Sent: = Wednesday,=20 January 05, 2011 8:09 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem = possibly=20 found.

Could this have been due to the low oil level you had Chris and low = oil=20 pressure? Not too sure. I am assuming you are premixing the two-cycle = oil in=20 with the fuel. Sure wish this didn't happen to you Chris, you have had a = time of=20 it. I guess you are right you will know that engine inside and out.=20

David Moyer

On 01/05/2011 07:21 PM, Chris Barber wrote:=20

Obviously, I am in serious need of adult supervision.

 

That being said, I am trying to address this latest issue in=20 as philosophical a manner as possible.

 

As of late, since I got my EC2 back from Tracy, I have had a = serious=20 hot start issue.  The engine seemed to run ok once started and = seem to=20 start pretty easily when cold. 

 

A few weeks ago I thought I had an oil pressure again but as I have = stated=20 earlier it seems that I was just low on oil.  Thinking I was = going to=20 have to pull then engine I removed my prop.  Out of curiosity I = started=20 the engine a few times keeping the rpm's very low....below about = 3000=20 rpm.  The engine started pretty easily, even when hot, even = though it did=20 surge until I played with the mixture.  I replaced the prop and I = have=20 the hot start problem again.

 

So, I thought I would start with basics again.  After doing=20 the EC2 test modes, I figured I would pull the plugs and have a = look=20 see.  The plugs looked as expected (the leading plugs more = blackish, the=20 trailing more brownish, but both pair matched). 

 

Last time (two times actually) when I had very hard hot start it = was due to=20 coolant leaking into the rotor housings.  The first time due = to my=20 ignorance following a build of one engine from three, = not having=20 good sensors and overheating the engine.  The second time due to = a brand=20 new center housing coolant galley wall failing.  DOH!

 

Since I recognized the symptoms, I looked for the same = issues ie green=20 coolant in the rotor housing.  There was none (figured since the = plugs=20 looked good).  The second time I could crank the engine as watch = coolant=20 shoot across my wing....not good.

 

So, this time, no coolant.  So, I figured I would check the = apex seals=20 by looking inside the spark plug holes.  All three of = the front=20 seals looked good and were nice and springy when I probed them gently = with a=20 screwdriver.  So, I moved the  rear housing.  Uh, = damn. =20 Two of the seals were funky.  One had no real movement.  The = second=20 one moved around fine but had NO springiness at all.

 

Ok, so I am "suspicious" ;-), so I break out the pressure = gage. =20 Checked the front chamber for sake of comparison and it gave me = three=20 nice pulses around 80lbs.  Did the same for the rear and it=20 was inconsistent at 30 to 60 lbs.  Got out = some penetrant and=20 sprayed on the seals to no avail.  Seems I have read some = tricks for=20 a stuck apex seal, but not for one that seems to have defective/broken = springs.

 

So, is appears I will be pulling the engine off once again and = replace at=20 least the apex seal springs on the rear housing.  Now, if any of = you fine=20 gentlemen and ladies have some nice little solution that would allow = me to not=20 take such drastic action, I am open to such suggestion.  I = figured it=20 will take a few days to get new springs in the mail, so I will have = time to=20 pull the engine and prepare everything.  If I recall correctly, I = may not=20 have to "break the seal" to the front rotor housing at all...or = so I=20 hope.  I am having to try to remember what it will take to put = the rear=20 housing back on, such as what parts I will remove that need to be = replaced and=20 not be able to be reused.  Money is tight right now, so the less = the=20 better. 

 

I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in=20 this allegedly robust engine <sigh> :-) before flight. Ed, = I leave=20 the gliding championship to you.  I must admit that the idea of = pulling=20 the engine is not quite as daunting since I have moved past the proof = of=20 concept mode and have got my flight ready install pretty much = set.  This=20 makes the engine removal, and then the re-install much more of a = methodical=20 process than a somewhat overwhelming dismantling...guess practice = makes=20 perfect.  <sigh>.

 

All the best,

 

Chris


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CBAD7C.722023D0--