X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4665465 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:42:32 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (imo-ma04.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.139]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p063foMS019440 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:41:50 -0500 Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d6b.687bbb84 (34995) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from magic-m22.mail.aol.com (magic-m22.mail.aol.com [172.20.22.195]) by cia-db01.mx.aol.com (v129.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB018-88b34d2539f3327; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:41:39 -0500 From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:41:39 EST Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard hot start problem possibly found. To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b9012.57bbd5a0.3a5693f3_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5382 X-AOL-IP: 72.187.199.116 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Lehanover@aol.com --part1_b9012.57bbd5a0.3a5693f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/5/2011 9:31:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net writes: I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in this allegedly robust engine :-) before flight. Ed, I leave the gliding championship to you. I must admit that the idea of pulling the engine is not quite as daunting since I have moved past the proof of concept mode and have got my flight ready install pretty much set. This makes the engine removal, and then the re-install much more of a methodical process than a somewhat overwhelming dismantling...guess practice makes perfect. . All the best, Chris Perhaps not the world leader. I built an engine that ended up in a Mini Cooper, in an "Inline" orientation with a Narrowed Ford 8" rear axle. Front suspension was from a Chevy Chevette. Same one was in the Corvair and the Pontiac Fiero. Home built 3" square tube chassis. He let it sit for two years then ran a weekend of Autocross with no oil pressure. Thought it was the gage no working. He gave that rotary away and put in a Chevy V-8. The rotary has poor compression due to long seal lengths and many end gaps. It does have enough compression ratio, but that is a calculation that leaves out any leak rate. The rotary has a high leak rate. Rate must include a time factor, and that time factor is how fast can the starter turn the engine. It can turn the engine faster with poor compression. It has that, so the starter sounds very effective. The poor starting with the prop installed vice the better starting without the prop should be evidence of this. The large combustion chamber produces poor fuel vaporization, and many fuel droplets will condense and cling to the interior surfaces. This is a very lean mixture as far as starting is concerned. The correct amount of fuel per pound may have been injected to run the engine at a fast idle, but it is of no value without vaporization. A faster starting RPM reduces the time available in the leak rate and reduces leakage, improving compression, raising charge temperature (heat of compression) and improving starting performance. If the vaporization improves, the effective mixture is enrichened. The rotors are made of Nodular iron. The apex seals of cast iron with electron beam heat treating of the wear faces. They are a close fit in the grooves. Both exhaust ports and intake ports are always open to the outside world. As fuel droplets flash off they lower the rotor temps and the air gives up its water, inside your engine. The apex seals stick in the grooves the first time they can. Stick a plug in the exhaust pipe right after shut down. Always run the air filter during operation and after shutdown until the engine is cold. I have been building engines and rebuilding other builders engines, since 1980. I have never removed a broken apex seal spring. I suggest that you have a stuck apex seal. Try a freeing product that includes a rust remover like Hydrochloric acid. As soon as the seal comes loose, run the engine for as long as is possible (water temps). Then spray in some motor oil and turn the engine a few revolutions. The acid eats iron rust and nonferrous metals like candy. Wear eye protection and rubber gloves. Outside off the concrete. Motor fuel is a cleaning solvent. Even with a bit of oil in it. The spark plug in use may add to the poor starting problem. If no actual loading is expected like high speed taxi or flying, then the plug heat range is of little matter (medium or retracted tip shape. Gapped at about .020". The multiple ground plugs that look like airplane plugs are easy to short out, and look like a capacitor. A single ground strap (small square wire) shortens rise time and concentrates energy in one location. Until the engine is broken in, you might premix one Oz. or more per gallon of whatever top oil. Sealing will be great and starting easy. If you remove the rear iron. Clamp all of the stack together with bungees/springs and, or safety wire. Even the rear rotor housing. So long as none of the pieces can move apart, no problems will spring up. Full throttle and load limited to 6,500 RPM, is racing in anybodies book. Nobody in racing uses a spark plug that can be found in a Mazda dealership. Lynn E. Hanover --part1_b9012.57bbd5a0.3a5693f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/5/2011 9:31:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:

I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in=20 this allegedly robust engine <sigh> :-) before flight. Ed,= I=20 leave the gliding championship to you.  I must admit that the ide= a of=20 pulling the engine is not quite as daunting since I have moved past th= e=20 proof of concept mode and have got my flight ready install pretty much= =20 set.  This makes the engine removal, and then the re-install much= more=20 of a methodical process than a somewhat overwhelming dismantling...gue= ss=20 practice makes perfect.  <sigh>.

 

All the best,

 

Chris


 
 
Perhaps not the world leader. I built an engine that ended up in a Mi= ni=20 Cooper, in an "Inline" orientation with a Narrowed Ford 8" rear axle. Fron= t=20 suspension was from a Chevy Chevette. Same one was in the Corvair and the= =20 Pontiac Fiero. Home built 3" square tube chassis. He let it sit for two ye= ars=20 then ran a weekend of Autocross with no oil pressure. Thought it was the= gage no=20 working. He gave that rotary away and put in a Chevy V-8.
 
The rotary has poor compression due to long seal lengths and many end= gaps.=20 It does have enough compression ratio, but that is a calculation that leav= es out=20 any leak rate. The rotary has a high leak rate.
Rate must include a time factor, and that time factor is how fast can= the=20 starter turn the engine. It can turn the engine faster with poor compressi= on. It=20 has that, so the starter sounds very effective. The poor starting with the= prop=20 installed vice the better starting without the prop should be evidence of= this.=20
 
The large combustion chamber produces poor fuel vaporization, and man= y fuel=20 droplets will condense and cling to the interior surfaces. This is a very= lean=20 mixture as far as starting is concerned. The correct amount of fuel per po= und=20 may have been injected to run the engine at a fast idle, but it is of no= value=20 without vaporization.
 
A faster starting RPM reduces the time available in the leak rate and= =20 reduces leakage, improving compression, raising charge temperature (heat= of=20 compression) and improving starting performance. 
If the vaporization improves, the effective mixture is enrichened.
 
The rotors are made of Nodular iron. The apex seals of cast iron with= =20 electron beam heat treating of the wear faces. They are a close fit in the= =20 grooves. Both exhaust ports and intake ports are always open to the outsid= e=20 world. As fuel droplets flash off they lower the rotor temps and the air= gives=20 up its water, inside your engine.
 
The apex seals stick in the grooves the first time they can. Stick a= plug=20 in the exhaust pipe right after shut down. Always run the air filter durin= g=20 operation and after shutdown until the engine is cold.
 
I have been building engines and rebuilding other builders engines,= since=20 1980. I have never removed a broken apex seal spring. I suggest that you= have a=20 stuck apex seal. Try a freeing product that includes a rust remover like= =20 Hydrochloric acid. As soon as the seal comes loose, run the engine for as= long=20 as is possible (water temps). Then spray in some motor oil and turn the en= gine a=20 few revolutions.
 
The acid eats iron rust and nonferrous metals like candy. Wear eye=20 protection and rubber gloves. Outside off the concrete.
 
Motor fuel is a cleaning solvent. Even with a bit of oil in it.
 
The spark plug in use may add to the poor starting problem. If no act= ual=20 loading is expected like high speed taxi or flying, then the plug hea= t=20 range is of little matter (medium or retracted tip shape. Gapped at= about=20 .020". The multiple ground plugs that look like airplane plugs are easy to= short=20 out, and look like a capacitor. A single ground strap (small square wire)= =20 shortens rise time and concentrates energy in one location. 
 
Until the engine is broken in, you might premix one Oz. or more= per=20 gallon of whatever top oil. Sealing will be great and starting easy.
 
If you remove the rear iron. Clamp all of the stack together with=20 bungees/springs and, or safety wire. Even the rear rotor housing. So long= as=20 none of the pieces can move apart, no problems will spring up.
 
Full throttle and load limited to 6,500 RPM, is racing in anybodies= book.=20 Nobody in racing uses a spark plug that can be found in a Mazda=20 dealership.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
  
--part1_b9012.57bbd5a0.3a5693f3_boundary--