X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4665405 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 20:39:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so14981838bwz.25 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:39:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rwaCyn/cp4yuN1+WiW5XRhobrODVET31y1G3DzvWqBI=; b=M4gxLBdWRexmAtalok1jBUhdSGFGgNg/aCxKUY9DoYzVp+GkTbzlHp/YLnfidCkYMX kLk5m4VvJlsLlpNuYX348K1CZdfvfqVzGU6mmgzk2YvVVUfm0091C4Y6zGsC218cvxZ4 mD83y7pGvBuUsBJ+h80nx5qZdM8C+1IRQiobA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=kIfjHC80lLJ5H20GDJ/AjwC7mcvMnVPSsjph2GcO9idlQPcsRusYgZg0EBgIeZ6mLS LBQVphzcqSCQa2Lnficu1iM44lO13u19/fxJngcYHRbE7nOEHVbKWWR/YPitb30/st+S bO/cm1jb0xAK8oaDw3FH/A+kB3lRgahPiWtIM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.71.20 with SMTP id f20mr1083346bkj.139.1294277947327; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.24.20 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 17:39:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:39:07 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Hard hot start problem possibley found. From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6de04214a85d1049923910f --0016e6de04214a85d1049923910f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Chris, If it is the rear rotor that is bad you can pull the rear iron and rear rotor without removing the engine from the airframe. Yes, I've done this with my 3-rotor, and know of one other 13B that this technique worked. You'll need to fabricate a bracket to hold the front and center housings together, but that is pretty simple to do. The oil pan holds the bottom together, so you'll only need to tie the top together. You'll still have to remove the intake, exhaust, gearbox/prop, etc. But this will keep you from having to remove a bunch of other stuff. Your choice... Mark S. On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > Obviously, I am in serious need of adult supervision. > > > > That being said, I am trying to address this latest issue in > as philosophical a manner as possible. > > > > As of late, since I got my EC2 back from Tracy, I have had a serious hot > start issue. The engine seemed to run ok once started and seem to start > pretty easily when cold. > > > > A few weeks ago I thought I had an oil pressure again but as I have stated > earlier it seems that I was just low on oil. Thinking I was going to have > to pull then engine I removed my prop. Out of curiosity I started the > engine a few times keeping the rpm's very low....below about 3000 rpm. > The engine started pretty easily, even when hot, even though it did surge > until I played with the mixture. I replaced the prop and I have the hot > start problem again. > > > > So, I thought I would start with basics again. After doing the EC2 test > modes, I figured I would pull the plugs and have a look see. The plugs > looked as expected (the leading plugs more blackish, the trailing more > brownish, but both pair matched). > > > > Last time (two times actually) when I had very hard hot start it was due to > coolant leaking into the rotor housings. The first time due to my > ignorance following a build of one engine from three, not having good > sensors and overheating the engine. The second time due to a brand new > center housing coolant galley wall failing. DOH! > > > > Since I recognized the symptoms, I looked for the same issues ie green > coolant in the rotor housing. There was none (figured since the plugs > looked good). The second time I could crank the engine as watch coolant > shoot across my wing....not good. > > > > So, this time, no coolant. So, I figured I would check the apex seals by > looking inside the spark plug holes. All three of the front seals looked > good and were nice and springy when I probed them gently with a > screwdriver. So, I moved the rear housing. Uh, damn. Two of the seals > were funky. One had no real movement. The second one moved around fine but > had NO springiness at all. > > > > Ok, so I am "suspicious" ;-), so I break out the pressure gage. Checked > the front chamber for sake of comparison and it gave me three nice pulses > around 80lbs. Did the same for the rear and it was inconsistent at 30 to > 60 lbs. Got out some penetrant and sprayed on the seals to no avail. > Seems I have read some tricks for a stuck apex seal, but not for one that > seems to have defective/broken springs. > > > > So, is appears I will be pulling the engine off once again and replace at > least the apex seal springs on the rear housing. Now, if any of you fine > gentlemen and ladies have some nice little solution that would allow me to > not take such drastic action, I am open to such suggestion. I figured it > will take a few days to get new springs in the mail, so I will have time to > pull the engine and prepare everything. If I recall correctly, I may not > have to "break the seal" to the front rotor housing at all...or so I > hope. I am having to try to remember what it will take to put the rear > housing back on, such as what parts I will remove that need to be replaced > and not be able to be reused. Money is tight right now, so the less the > better. > > > > I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in this allegedlyrobust engine :-) before flight. Ed, I leave the gliding championship > to you. I must admit that the idea of pulling the engine is not quite as > daunting since I have moved past the proof of concept mode and have got my > flight ready install pretty much set. This makes the engine removal, and > then the re-install much more of a methodical process than a somewhat > overwhelming dismantling...guess practice makes perfect. . > > > > All the best, > > > > Chris > --0016e6de04214a85d1049923910f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris,=A0

If it is the rear rotor that is bad you can pu= ll the rear iron and rear rotor without removing the engine from the airfra= me. =A0Yes, I've done this with my 3-rotor, and know of one other 13B t= hat this technique worked. =A0You'll need to fabricate a bracket to hol= d the front and center housings together, but that is pretty simple to do. = =A0The oil pan holds the bottom together, so you'll only need to tie th= e top together. =A0You'll still have to remove the intake, exhaust, gea= rbox/prop, etc. =A0But this will keep you from having to remove a bunch of = other stuff. =A0Your choice...

Mark S.

On Wed, Jan 5= , 2011 at 7:21 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
=

Obviously, I am in serious need of adult supervision.

=A0

That being said, I am trying to address this latest issue in as=A0philos= ophical a manner=A0as possible.

=A0

As of late, since I got my=A0EC2 back from Tracy, I= have had a serious hot start issue.=A0 The engine seemed to run ok once st= arted and seem to start pretty easily when cold.=A0

=A0

A few weeks ago I thought I had an oil pressure again but as I have stat= ed earlier it seems that I was just low on oil.=A0 Thinking I was going to = have to pull then engine I removed my prop.=A0 Out of curiosity I started t= he engine a few times keeping the=A0rpm's very low....below about 3000 rpm.=A0 The engine started pretty easily, eve= n when hot, even though it did surge until I played with the mixture.=A0 I = replaced the prop and I have the hot start problem again.

=A0

So, I thought I would start with basics again.=A0 After doing the=A0EC2<= a> test modes, I figured I would pull the plugs and have = a look see.=A0 The plugs looked as expected (the leading plugs more blackis= h, the trailing more brownish, but both pair matched).=A0

=A0

Last time (two times actually) when I had very hard hot start it was due= to coolant leaking into the=A0rotor housings.=A0 The first time due= to my ignorance following a build of one=A0engine from three, not= =A0having good sensors and overheating the engine.=A0 The second time due to a brand new center housing coolant g= alley wall failing.=A0 DOH!

=A0

Since I recognized the symptoms, I looked for the same issues=A0i= e green coolant in the rotor housing.=A0 There was non= e (figured since the plugs looked good).=A0 The second time I could crank t= he engine as watch coolant shoot across my wing....not good.

=A0

So, this time, no coolant.=A0 So, I figured I would check the apex seals= by looking inside the spark plug holes.=A0 All three of the=A0front= seals looked good and were nice and springy when I probed them gently with= a screwdriver.=A0 So, I moved the=A0 rear housing.=A0 Uh, damn.=A0 Two of the seals were funky.=A0 One had no real m= ovement.=A0 The second one moved around fine but had NO=A0springiness at all.

=A0

Ok, so I am "suspicious" ;-), so I break out the pressu= re gage.=A0 Checked the front chamber for sake of comparison=A0and it gave = me three nice pulses around 80lbs.=A0 Did the same for= the rear and it was=A0inconsistent at 30 to 60 lbs.=A0 Got out some=A0penetrant and sprayed on th= e seals=A0to no avail.=A0 Seems I have read some tricks for a stuck = apex seal, but not for one that seems to have defective/broken springs.

=A0

So, is appears I will be pulling the engine off once again and replace a= t least the apex seal springs on the rear housing.=A0 Now, if any of you fi= ne gentlemen and ladies have some nice little solution that would allow me = to not take such drastic action, I am open to such suggestion.=A0 I figured it will take a few days to get ne= w springs in the mail, so I will have time to pull the engine and prepare e= verything.=A0 If I recall correctly, I may not have to "= break the seal" to the front=A0rotor housing at all...or so I hope.=A0 I am having to try to remember what it w= ill take to put the rear housing back on, such as what parts I will remove = that need to be replaced and not be able to be reused.=A0 Money is tight ri= ght now, so the less the better.=A0

=A0

I may be the current leader of discovering failure modes in this=A0alleg= edly robust engine <sigh> :-) before flight. Ed, I leav= e the gliding championship to you.=A0 I must admit that the idea of pulling= the engine is not quite as daunting since I have moved past the proof of concept mode and have got my flight ready i= nstall pretty much set.=A0 This makes the engine removal, and then the re-i= nstall much more of a methodical process than a somewhat over= whelming dismantling...guess practice makes perfect.=A0 <sigh>.

=A0

All the best,

=A0

Chris


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