X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm28.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.98] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with SMTP id 4665165 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:31:24 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.98; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.64] by nm28.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2011 21:30:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.37] by tm4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2011 21:30:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1037.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2011 21:30:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 842325.46047.bm@omp1037.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 71989 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2011 21:30:49 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1294263049; bh=MUhNUbPZHv8ebevcdvZCGS8wYflIB9zvgboztIYm7Cc=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DLLNSYpPRSvUc/fgEUSKrC0emEAxKMrZIqH3o6UNuJHKDqWE9is5/45A6Z1JsIARqLXyrtwMERFj0vXoLjlk08Pdkq9YOBBYGkSp8xcYB4sExjAisHKPwInINJd2mbP9jJ1+uI6Bi5QhWgq7sHuo6XGKr6EupXmFfk1oO/ZHBcY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=eMOaP9jiRncdjsBpCZSCQV3zxqNLEFKGvVuO+DDW6SDcSephj3TkmsLzfLATc/fgi10wN8pJu4tRztI5CgMdIPR81gYoEevAfKDtfrdy2dObuqARFTFBm08MAshgKEHTKF9/wxLwYqnFJFt85Gnw9NZe+6q8hVNLl9xQykOa0HY=; Message-ID: <570850.71218.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: GSRLQm8VM1lLYRBTb9X7czvhLfDs9NZIZeWGDsyN_9rHfrv 0Wmu8LsFcmTMBijjqeudutYleX5LHOo4iURGXMwXUnFjWTovokcdch8ZXtsP BQ3TEdJ0UQz8Y96LTAZBBbTlGgI3cJ2mks9vknVeEfAOtpR7mhwuyGW6.W9q 28.jLTUce6ThTppnoQX.IXUisyiOHnFuxjx.z.CXNlFmZRqkxU_uwmAq98zc zDfFN5Zcoz8tLesIhRATtoV2f2Q7LtOqcaDmPyzn9BppNJ1Qu0Q6dG_gLmwv ReCDIpD3WOQ-- Received: from [208.114.41.2] by web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 13:30:49 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:30:49 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: GM Coil Comparison To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2148425-1294263049=:71218" --0-2148425-1294263049=:71218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0What is it about the Rotary combustion pro= cess that is different from =0Aa typical piston A/C engine (although air co= oled) running on leaded fuel ??=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If spark plug temps= are a major factor I would think the A/C piston =0Aplugs would be running = hotter..........Perhaps it is the duty cycle of Rotary=0A(13B) plugs which = are tasked to many more=C2=A0times the firing events of a=0AA/C engine plug= s to develop equivalent power........??=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer= =0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM= 2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Steven W. Boese =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent:= Mon, January 3, 2011 2:53:57 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Compari= son=0A=0A=0AKelly,=0A=C2=A0=0AMy spark plug life has been the same with the= stock 13B coils and the D585 =0Acoils.=C2=A0 I have had SAG with the D585 = coils also.=C2=A0 As I discussed at the Paducah =0Afly in, SAG does not app= ear to be a spark plug misfire or failure to spark.=C2=A0 The =0Aeffect on = EGT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for SAG as opposed to no =0Asp= ark with either the trailing or leading plug.=C2=A0 I have seen evidence th= at SAG =0Amay be (similar to?) preignition caused by decreased thermal cond= uctivity =0Abetween the center electrode and the tip of the ceramic.=C2=A0 = This decreased thermal =0Aconductivity results from corrosion between the c= eramic and the center electrode =0Aand this corrosion is accelerated by the= use of leaded fuel. =C2=A0There is also some =0Aevidence for decreased the= rmal conductivity of the center electrode copper core =0Aas the spark plugs= age.=0A=C2=A0=0ASteve Boese=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mai= lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0AKelly Troyer=0ASent: Monda= y, January 03, 2011 1:17 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison=0A=C2=A0=0ASteve,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0 Good to sta= rt the year off with an interesring and educational string !! =0ASteve to s= hine=0Asome light on Al's question about electrode erosion and possible "SA= G" reduction =0Awhat=0Ahas been your experience with plug life and have you= had SAG with the D585 =0Acoil/igniters??=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE D= ELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRA= L"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A= =0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Al Gietzen =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Mo= n, January 3, 2011 1:38:42 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison= =0AAside from the higher spark current from the D585s eroding the sparkplug= =0Aelectrodes more quickly; do we have evidence that it will, in fact, imp= rove =0Aperformance? Perhaps it is a cure for SAG.=0A=C2=A0=0ABTW; my 6 D58= 1 coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my first =0Aengine sta= rt back in about 2001. =C2=A0They have survived many hours of ground test = =0Aruns where cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=E2=80=99m sure reached 1= 90+ for short =0Aperiods); and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. = In-cowl temps are =0Atypically about 150 during climb-out; and generally 12= 0-140 during cruise. =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0APerhaps it helps that they get plent= y of air flow (during flight) being pretty =0Amuch in blast from the rad ex= it.=C2=A0 I generally run the rad aux fan for awhile =0Aafter shutdown; but= I=E2=80=99d guess high temp is less of an issue when they are not =0Aopera= ting.=0A=C2=A0=0AAl=0A=C2=A0=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf =0AOf Tracy= =0ASent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:13 AM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft= =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison=0A=C2=A0=0AI highly recommen= d the air cooled enclosure as Steve Boese (and I) use.=C2=A0 This is =0Aesp= ecially important on the D581 and the stock RX-8 Renesis coils.=C2=A0 The R= enesis =0Acoils have a fairly high failure rate even on the car.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 The D581 would only =0Alast a few hours at 150 F but I have about 250 h= ours on them with the airbox at =0A120F.=0A=0ADon't forget to do the coil d= isable test to check for failed coils prior to =0Aevery flight.=0A=0ATracy= =0AOn Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese wrote= :=0AI have about 100 hours on D585 coils and have had no problems with them= so far.=C2=A0 =0AThe temperature in their airblasted enclosure is usually = less than 100 degrees =0Ain flight and has gotten up to 120 degrees during = taxi.=0A=C2=A0=0ASteve Boese=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mai= lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0ATracy=0ASent: Monday, Janu= ary 03, 2011 8:41 AM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary]= Re: GM Coil Comparison=0A=C2=A0=0AI have a set of the D585 coils but have = only evaluated them on the bench for =0Acompatibility with the EC2/3=C2=A0 = (they are).=0A=0AI do know that the previous version of the truck coils (D5= 81) are not as =0Areliable as the D580 (Corvette) coils.=0A=0ATracy=0AOn Su= n, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0AHappy=C2= =A0New Year Group,=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A = little info regarding the various GM ignition coils that many of us =0Ause = on our=0ARotary engines=C2=A0with Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I thought = might be of =0Ainterest=0Ato those that have not seen it before............= .Tracy would like your comments =0Aon the=0Athe apparently big performance = difference between the LS1 verses the LS2 Truck=0Acoils and if an upgrade w= ould be worth the $$ especially for those of us that =0Ahave=0Aor plan on T= urbocharging in light of the higher combustion chamber =0Apressures.......= =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0Ahttp://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls1=0A= =C2=A0=0Ahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-6218245369765754251&hl= =3Den=0A=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A"13B ROTA= RY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURB= ONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo --0-2148425-1294263049=:71218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Steve,
=0A
    What is= it about the Rotary combustion process that is different from
=0Aa typical piston A/C engine (although air cooled) running on leaded fuel = ??
=0A
 
=0A
    If spark plug temps = are a major factor I would think the A/C piston
=0A
plugs would b= e running hotter..........Perhaps it is the duty cycle of Rotary
=0A(13B) plugs which are tasked to many more times the firing events o= f a=0A
A/C engine plugs to develop equivalent power........??&nbs= p;
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu= >
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:53:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Compa= rison

=0A= =0A=0A
=0A

Kelly,

= =0A

 

=0A

My spark p= lug life has been the same with the stock 13B coils and the D585 coils.&nbs= p; I have had SAG with the D585 coils also.  As I discussed at the Pad= ucah fly in, SAG does not appear to be a spark plug misfire or failure to s= park.  The effect on EGT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for = SAG as opposed to no spark with either the trailing or leading plug.  = I have seen evidence that SAG may be (similar to?) preignition caused by de= creased thermal conductivity between the center electrode and the tip of th= e ceramic.  This decreased thermal conductivity results from corrosion= between the ceramic and the center electrode and this corrosion is acceler= ated by the use of leaded fuel.  There is also some evidence for decre= ased thermal conductivity of the center electrode copper core as the spark = plugs age.

=0A

 

=0A

Steve Boese

=0A

 =0A

=0A
=0A

Steve,

=0A
=0A

   Good to start the year off with= an interesring and educational string !! Steve to shine

= =0A
=0A

s= ome light on Al's question about electrode erosion and possible "SAG" reduc= tion what

=0A
=0A

has been your experience with plug life and have y= ou had SAG with the D585 coil/igniters??

=0A
=0A

 

=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTAR= Y"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Tu= rbo

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From:<= /SPAN> Al Gi= etzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 1:38= :42 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=0A<= DIV>=0A

Aside from the higher spark current from the D585s= eroding the sparkplug electrodes more quickly; do we have evidence that it= will, in fact, improve performance? Perhaps it is a cure for SAG.=0A

 

=0A

BTW; my 6 D581= coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my first engine start b= ack in about 2001.  They have survived many hours of ground test runs = where cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=E2=80=99m sure reached 190+ for = short periods); and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. In-cowl tem= ps are typically about 150 during climb-out; and generally 120-140 during c= ruise.  

=0A

 

=0A

Perhaps it helps that they get plenty of air flow (during flight)= being pretty much in blast from the rad exit.  I generally run the ra= d aux fan for awhile after shutdown; but I=E2=80=99d guess high temp is les= s of an issue when they are not operating.

=0A

&= nbsp;

=0A

Al

=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">&nbs= p;

=0A

-----Original Message----= -
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:= 13 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary= ] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=0A

 

=0A

I highly recommend the air cooled = enclosure as Steve Boese (and I) use.  This is especially important on= the D581 and the stock RX-8 Renesis coils.  The Renesis coils have a = fairly high failure rate even on the car.   The D581 would only l= ast a few hours at 150 F but I have about 250 hours on them with the airbox= at 120F.

Don't forget to do the coil disable test to check for fail= ed coils prior to every flight.

Tracy

=0A
=0A

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Steven W= . Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu> wrote:

=0A=
=0A
=0A

I have about 100 hours on D585 coils= and have had no problems with them so far.  The temperature in their = airblasted enclosure is usually less than 100 degrees in flight and has got= ten up to 120 degrees during taxi.

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

Steve Boese

=0A

 

=0A
=0A

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
= Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41 AM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=0A

 

=0A

I have a set of the D585 coils but have only evaluated them on the= bench for compatibility with the EC2/3  (they are).

I do know = that the previous version of the truck coils (D581) are not as reliable as = the D580 (Corvette) coils.

Tracy

=0A
=0A

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Troyer &= lt;keltro@att.net> wrote:

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A

Happy New Year Group,

=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A

     =    A little info regarding the various GM ignition coils that man= y of us use on our

=0A
=0A

Rotary engines with = Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I thought might be of interest

=0A
=0A

to those that have not seen it before.............Tracy w= ould like your comments on the

=0A
=0A

the apparentl= y big performance difference between the LS1 verses the LS2 Truck

=0A
=0A

coils and if an upgrade would be worth the $$ especia= lly for those of us that have

=0A
=0A

or plan on Tur= bocharging in light of the higher combustion chamber pressures....... =

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A
=0A

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#l= s1

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

htt= p://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-6218245369765754251&hl=3Den

=0A
=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black">
 

=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTR= AL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=
=0A

 

=
=0A

&nbs= p;

--0-2148425-1294263049=:71218--